this post was submitted on 06 Jul 2024
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submitted 4 months ago by PugJesus@lemmy.world to c/politicalmemes@lemmy.world
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[–] PugJesus@lemmy.world 3 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

Which contemporary democratic european societies do you mean, exactly? Which ones existed before the enlightenment?

Free Communes, guild-run city-states, peasant republics, the Swiss, Slavic Veche, Germanic Things, Diets, Parliaments, the Polish Commonwealth, the Hussites, Jesus fucking Christ.

[–] Prunebutt@slrpnk.net -1 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Even if I'm a bit skeptical how "democratic" some of these were (since the prevalent ideology pre enlightenment in europe was that the demos wasn't actually capable of conducting policy) and how much e.g. germanic things of all things would have influenced central and western european thought that much (especially rince enlightenment philosophers usually referenced ancient greece - which actually didn't really favour our notion of democracy). I give you that democratic structures did partially exist in Europe.

I'm still a bit baffled that you would consider it ridiculous that native American thought didn't have any input on the enlightenment over 100 years after europe has discovered

  • that there are whole human civilizations across the atlantic who have never even heard of Jesus.
  • these people in that new continent had quite remarkably similar thoughts on liberty and equality as the enlightenment had.

Also: the native Americans were right there, the founding fathers knew of their great law of peace and the US congress has even passed a resolution on how that great law of peace had influenced the US constitution.

[–] PugJesus@lemmy.world 2 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Even if I’m a bit skeptical how “democratic” some of these were (since the prevalent ideology pre enlightenment in europe was that the demos wasn’t actually capable of conducting policy) and how much e.g. germanic things of all things would have influenced central and western european thought that much

Yes, goodness me, how silly thinking that Germanic institutions might have influence on Central and Western Europe, which were filled with Germanic-derived states.

(especially rince enlightenment philosophers usually referenced ancient greece - which actually didn’t really favour our notion of democracy).

What.

I’m still a bit baffled that you would consider it ridiculous that native American thought didn’t have any input on the enlightenment over 100 years after europe has discovered

Why would it? Ethnographic studies of Native Americans were not of considerable interest to European philosophers at the time. And certainly not accurate ones.

these people in that new continent had quite remarkably similar thoughts on liberty and equality as the enlightenment had.

... did they? SOME of them practiced democratic forms of governance. But unless you're going to argue that the rationalist, social-contract style thinking of the Enlightenment was replicated amongst Native American tribes, I don't really know how much similarity there is in the thinking beyond the commonality of all democratic polities, in Africa, Europe, Asia, and the Americas.

Also: the native Americans were right there, the founding fathers knew of their great law of peace and the US congress has even passed a resolution on how that great law of peace had influenced the US constitution.

Yes, I am well aware that the Founding Fathers knew about Native Americans and their forms of governance; that has very little to do with the Enlightenment-era ideals that predominated in the thinking and execution of the foundational documents of the USA.

[–] Prunebutt@slrpnk.net 0 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Yes, goodness me, how silly thinking that Germanic institutions might have influence on Central and Western Europe, which were filled with Germanic-derived states.

Wait a second... are you suggesting that prussia could be considered a "germanic" country back then? Do you think they had things in saxony? Lol ^^

What.

Our notion that democracy was spear-headed in athens is highly romanticized.

Why would it? Ethnographic studies of Native Americans were not of considerable interest to European philosophers at the time. And certainly not accurate ones.

Ahem... "Philosophy is when you are uninterested in the biggest anthropological discovery of the last two centuries. The less interest you have, the more philosophic it is.".

But unless you're going to argue that the rationalist, social-contract style thinking of the Enlightenment was replicated amongst Native American tribes, I don't really know how much similarity there is in the thinking beyond the commonality of all democratic polities, in Africa, Europe, Asia, and the Americas.

Foreign culture is filtered through your own cultural lenses. Ever seen japanese media based on Goethe's Faust?

Yes, I am well aware that the Founding Fathers knew about Native Americans and their forms of governance;

What? I thought it was...

[...] an absolutely bizarre idea.

[–] PugJesus@lemmy.world 2 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Wait a second… are you suggesting that prussia could be considered a “germanic” country back then?

Are you saying Prussia isn't a Germanic-derived state? Do I... do I have to educate you on Christian colonialism in Europe now too?

Do you think they had things in saxony? Lol ^^

No, they had Diets.

Our notion that democracy was spear-headed in athens is highly romanticized.

... okay...?

Ahem… “Philosophy is when you are uninterested in the biggest anthropological discovery of the last two centuries. The less interest you have, the more philosophic it is.”.

Sorry that you were aware of early modern European racism two comments ago, but have seemingly entirely forgotten it now.

What? I thought it was…

This you?

This framing is very cynical, since the european upper class probably got those concepts from the native Americans which the US displaced/genocided.

Because I'm pretty sure this is the third time I've mentioned that this is what I'm refuting. It's getting kind of tedious reminding you of what you just said a few comments ago. Are you even trying, or just keeping up the conversation so you don't have to confront how monumentally incorrect your statement was?

[–] Prunebutt@slrpnk.net -1 points 4 months ago (1 children)

lol, things in Prussia, ok. ^^

Are you claiming the founding fathers weren't european?

[–] PugJesus@lemmy.world 1 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

lol, things in Prussia, ok.

This is what you said

Wait a second… are you suggesting that prussia could be considered a “germanic” country back then?

But it seems to be too much to ask of you that you remember your own claims.

Are you claiming the founding fathers weren’t european?

All seven were born and raised in the Americas.

Again, this is what YOU said

This framing is very cynical, since the european upper class probably got those concepts from the native Americans which the US displaced/genocided.

I can't believe I have to remind you of what you said over and over again, and that you still don't seem to recognize it. Do I need to underline it? Find a highlighter?

[–] Prunebutt@slrpnk.net 0 points 4 months ago (1 children)

This is what you said

this u?

Are you saying Prussia isn't a Germanic-derived state?

All seven were born and raised in the Americas.

They were culturally still european, otherwise, your enlightenment point wouldn't make sense, either.

[–] PugJesus@lemmy.world 1 points 4 months ago (1 children)

This is what you said

this u?

Are you saying Prussia isn’t a Germanic-derived state?

... yes...? That is me asking if you meant what you just said. Jesus Christ.

They were culturally still european, otherwise, your enlightenment point wouldn’t make sense, either.

"Americans are not allowed to take from the European Enlightenment that I specifically cited as coming from Europe and which no serious historian doubts was instrumental in the thinking of the Founding Fathers and the founding documents of the US; an Enlightenment that arose independently of Native American polities and thinking - also something no serious academic disputes."

Okay buddy. We're done here.

[–] Prunebutt@slrpnk.net 0 points 4 months ago

Boy, they could use your strawman abilities in Gävle.