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Fuck liberal Zionists for complaining about progroms for all these decades. This is what you enabled. Fuck all the talk about two state solutions. Israel should no longer exist unless it becomes a multi ethnic democracy with full rights for Palestinians.
Signed,
A Jewish guy
How hard would it be to have a complete religious schism from the Israelis? They are lost and irredeemable.
Religion is just a complicated excuse for violence
Zionism is a political ideology, not religious. In fact it's completely opposed to judaism as it has existed for thousands of years. It's goals are explicitly political (eg. genocide and ethnic cleansing) without any relation to the actual religion of judaism. For this reason it's anti-semitic to claim that zionism is a jewish or religious ideology.
The only religion here is fascism - the worship of the state.
Dude don't blame this on religion. This is Zionism and fascism, both of which are post-Enlightenment Western inventions through and through.
Religion is excellent cover for it, though.
No? Religion can both support and oppose fascism, but looking at Hitler and Mussolini and thinking "religion did this" is frankly ahistorical and is nothing but a way for atheists to feel better about themselves.
You've reversed the order, and that doesn't work.
"Religion enables violence" is not the same as "All violence is caused by religion."
"Religion enables violence" is not the same as "All violence is caused by religion."
Yes, and I'm saying that religion had very little to do with Hitler's inherently race-based ideology. Hell, the Nazis defined Jews via their ancestry, not their religious observance. What did religion have to do with the Generalplan Ost or the Aryan race?
Aryan race stuff, as exemplified in 19th and 20th century racial superiority, actually starts with lingustics.
Yes, and I'm saying that religion had very little to do with Hitler's inherently race-based ideology.
Okay? You're the only one talking about that, and nobody is disagreeing with you. Although I might add that Hitler and his ilk were kind of famously into the occult. Perhaps not a religion, but certainly religious.
Let me rephrase: Yes, and I'm saying that religion had very little to do with Hitler's inherently race-based ideology, even as a cover. Nazis were religious to the extent that everyone at the time was religious, but religion was just another thing they pandered to and didn't have a big role to play in their activities except insofar as all non-Nazi ideologies—religious or not—were targets of extermination.
Yes, and I'm saying that religion had very little to do with Hitler's inherently race-based ideology, even as a cover.
Religion still does enable violence. Just because you're citing a specific example where it arguably did not does not falsify that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_violence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_violence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism_and_violence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_and_violence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_and_violence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_terrorism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khalistan_movement#Militancy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_war
And let's not forget the Aztecs, whose religion had them subjugating their nearby enemies, capturing their people, and sacrificing them to satisfy their deities. The Aztecs were so horrible that when the Europeans showed up and kind of rolled over them, those previously subjugated city-states went fucking ham on the Aztecs, completely destroying them. And the Europeans were all "Dude, that's harsh."
There are certainly also plenty of non-religious cases of violence throughout history, of course, for good and bad reasons. "Because a deity 'said so'" is never a good reason.
Religion still does enable violence. Just because you're citing a specific example where it arguably did not does not falsify that.
I thought I made it pretty clear I talking specifically about fascism and its offshoots like Zionism, Nazism and MAGA.
Zionism is complicated, because "Jewish" can be a religion, nationality, culture, or ethnicity/race, or any combination of the above, depending on who is using the term and in what context.
MAGA is absolutely strongly correlated with evangelical Christianity in the US.
Zionism is complicated, because "Jewish" can be a religion, nationality, culture, or ethnicity/race, or any combination of the above, depending on who is using the term and in what context.
"Jewish" can be any of those things, but Zionism pretty explicitly treats Jews as an ethnicity/nationality. This is why even liberal/atheist Jews are considered Jews by Zionists.
MAGA is absolutely strongly correlated with evangelical Christianity in the US.
Yes, but did that materially contribute to their fascist rhetoric or actions? From what I know their rhetoric is mostly race and nationality-based, which is why they're going after immigrants and non-whites rather than atheists and other sects of Christianity. In fact while MAGA is correlated with evangelical Christianity it doesn't exactly reject atheists, with 27% of voters not affiliated with any religious group being Republican..
Adding to this, PunkRockSportsFan ignores that religion has been used to end violence. Christianity was a huge part in the US abolitionist movement.
I mean you can't play that card when the entirety of slavery was justified by that same Christianity up until the point that a civil war ended the argument. Again, religion had nothing to do with it besides giving conviction to anyone based on what they feel, in their head, god wants. Abolitionists were religious just like every other person in america in 1880, and Abolitionists were not the majority.
Ever heard of the Quakers? Quite a few * other sects.
Were they the ones for abolition? I always associate them more with the revolution than the civil war but I could be mixing them up with the whigs
How many wars have been fought because of religion? Religions very commonly use fear as a method of control (Christians even invented hell just for that purpose). This makes them unfortunately well suited for fascist takeover.
The shit? The pioneers of fascism—Hitler and Mussolini—appealed to the Enlightenment-era ideologies of race and nationalism a lot more than they appealed to religion, and Ben Gurion was an atheist. Then in modern Israel you have liberal Jews and ultraorthodox Jews, who are both equally supportive of the genocide of Palestinians for Lebensraum (though liberal Jews are more likely to prioritize getting the hostages back). MAGA is also built on nationalism, race ideology and a notion of a "great America", with religion only taking an auxiliary role. Again, fascism and Zionism were invented in and keep being practiced by the least religious region in the world; don't make this the fault of religion because it's quite obviously not. Religion isn't the cause of everything you don't like. Y'all invented this shit so own it.
Religion isn't the cause of everything you don't like.
Never said it was. And I didn't say religion was the source of fascism either.
Don't excuse religion's faults; it has been used to cause massive amounts of human suffering. Yes, it can be a positive tool. But it's a tool that has a well documented history of repression and violence.
This makes them unfortunately well suited for fascist takeover.
-You. This whole conversation is also about fascism. The proposition that religion is fertile ground for fascism is simply not supported historically.
Yes, it can be a positive tool. But it's a tool that has a well documented history of repression and violence.
Yes, but not under fascism. That's what I'm trying to say here. Screw the Crusades, post-Reformation wars, the modern Iranian regime and the Taliban, but that shit has nothing to do with fascism. Religion and fascism (which is a form of state religion) are actively competing ideas.
And of course, instead of solving underlying issues, we should just blame and ban surface level problems so that nothing ever changes.
Religion is just a tool, not a cause. The cause of all the problems you quote are ego and power-mongering. Those things twist anything they touch, not just religion.
The solution is not more vapid reactionism.
How many wars have been fought for a state? Every single one.
I'd like to say that so are zombie films and media.
zombies have become an excuse to dehumanize and glorify justifiable violence against humans at this point.
Are these people even self-aware? OMG.
Yes, entirely. That's why they say it's a good plan but not practical. Israel is a genocidal ethnostate; it's citizens are nazis.
I guess you missed the riots in tel Aviv over Israel's right to rape palestinians in captivity. Not against it, but against the government investigating and charging the prison guards with the rape and sexual assault of dozens of Palestinians who were imprisoned. It is unironically the most depraved country on earth and we pay their fucking rent.
Israel is so unbelievably cooked as a society holy shit.
The only bad genocide is our genocide.
This is a damning result for Israeli society.
I have minimal knowledge of sociological research in Israel/Palestine, but if this result is a accurate representation of the views of Israeli Jews, then we can with confidence say that an overwhelming majority of Israeli Jews support genocidal colonialism.
Holocausts for thee but not for me