this post was submitted on 11 Oct 2023
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NonCredibleDefense

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[–] skillissuer@discuss.tchncs.de 80 points 1 year ago (10 children)

free palestine from hamas

awfully lot of people make the mistake of conflating palestinians with hamas, especially considering that the last elections were out there almost 20 years ago and weren't allowed since. west bank effectively treats gaza as under rebel government

(same goes for conflating israelis with israeli govt of course. they have mostly-functional elections, but bibi tries hard to undo it with his judiciary fuckery. this might be one reason for intelligence lapse - some army people resigned as a result of these moves and in parallel some seats were stuffed with bibi's people)

then you have this bit where likud needs hamas because this riles up israeli nationalists, which harass and contain gaza and send out settlers which radicalizes palestinian right wingers, which

this has been going on for considerable time and is deliberate strategy of likud https://www.vox.com/23910085/netanyahu-israel-right-hamas-gaza-war-history https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/

goes without saying that you can't really have peaceful palestine with hamas existing but i'd also say that you can't really have peaceful palestine with likud in power

[–] JebKush@sh.itjust.works 25 points 1 year ago

This is the right take. Likud and Hamas (and the other minor parties/terror groups aligned with those two) deserve each other. The civilians don't deserve to be caught between them. They're both fairly popular afaik, but I can't necessarily blame the people when either side unilaterally disarming would face atrocities.

[–] PugJesus@lemmy.world 17 points 1 year ago

It's all so fucked. I can't even imagine what it's like to be one of the millions of civilians caught between two groups of shitty opportunists.

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[–] Delphia@lemmy.world 57 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

After the Hamas attack the news showed video of Palestinians singing and dancing in the street. My buddy just took a sip of his coffee "What are they celebrating, their last day of having houses? For every action there is a reaction, and an Israeli reaction is quite a fucking thing"

I shouldnt have laughed but not only did I know he was right but he managed to make it a Snatch reference.

[–] Fisk400@feddit.nu 53 points 1 year ago (6 children)

Trust noncredibledefense to have the proper takes.

[–] rustyfish@lemmy.world 40 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Which is true and also sad. When the Ukraine Boogaloo started r/noncredibledefense was one of the best sources there. Which isn’t shining a good light on the rest of that site.

[–] skillissuer@discuss.tchncs.de 14 points 1 year ago

nah this is expected. non-specialist won’t find IR/geopolitics/defense shitsposts funny, or even understand them in more obscure cases

[–] PugJesus@kbin.social 28 points 1 year ago

Gotta know what's right in order to REALLY get it wrong.

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[–] LazerFX@sh.itjust.works 42 points 1 year ago (6 children)

It's quite spectactular. I think the politcs on both sides are awful, and I really feel for the civillians who are just trying to live their lives under this bullshit. Both sides need to step up and take responsibility for their major, horrific fuckups and problems; and the west in general needs to take responsibility for kicking people out of their homes to make homes for others... but also both sides just need to stop fucking hurting each other for a minute in order to progress.

[–] snooggums@kbin.social 10 points 1 year ago (3 children)

So Israel needs to stop colonizing Palestine, as that is the primary cause of death and conflict.

Saying both sides just need to stop when one is constantly the aggressor and the other is responding to that aggression is zero tolerance logic. Blaming the victim is why things have escalated to the point we are at now.

[–] Atomic@sh.itjust.works 23 points 1 year ago (1 children)

They're not colonizing Palestine. They're eradicating it.

And this has been going on for almost 80 years. Anything anyone does, is always, in response to some shitty thing someone did before. But fact of the matter is, Israel benefits more than Palistine to have a conflict. So much that the time when it actually looked like someone could talk both sides to a peaceful conclusion. Israel had him assassinated.

[–] snooggums@kbin.social 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Colonization is the method Isreal is using to eradicate Palestine.

[–] Atomic@sh.itjust.works 10 points 1 year ago (8 children)

Look. I get that you heard that word somewhere. But everything isn't colonizing.

Annexing would be a better description to what they're doing.

[–] flipht@kbin.social 6 points 1 year ago

Its literally colonizing though. It's sending their citizens to build settlements in areas that do not belong to them.

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[–] S_204@lemmy.world 12 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The Day Israel became a country they were attacked. They've been on defense since day 1.

They're too heavy handed that's clear but they are not the aggressor or instigator in this fight. They've offered dozens of peace deals, brokered by a variety of 3rd parties, only to be rejected because Hamas wants Jews dead. It's in their founding Charter, just to be clear about who's intent is what over there in terms of aggression.

[–] snooggums@kbin.social 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Evicting Palestinians from Palestinian territory by force so that Isreali settlers can occupy their land is being defensive?

[–] S_204@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I don't understand how you could see that in any other context? They're obviously developing settlements to maintain a front in the region. You can see from this week's events that having settlements adjacent to the border prevent the incursion from penetrating deeper into the country where the larger population centers are.

20, or 30 years ago you were seeing bombings in Jerusalem and Tel Aviv. I was in Jerusalem for a bus bombing and just missed it.... Those have died down and been replaced with border skirmishes.

Whether that's a reasonable or effective strategy is a different question.

[–] ZombiFrancis@sh.itjust.works 4 points 1 year ago (3 children)

"Developing settlements to maintain a front" is a pretty wild tactic, let alone a defensive one.

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[–] mindbleach@sh.itjust.works 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

When the response to that aggression is also genocide fantasies, sometimes a conflict has no good guys.

[–] snooggums@kbin.social 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

That is correct, there are no good guys in ths situation.

[–] mindbleach@sh.itjust.works 5 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Then stop scoffing when people condemn both sides.

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[–] TheDorkfromYork@lemm.ee 5 points 1 year ago (2 children)

What plan would please both sides?

[–] Xanthrax@lemmy.world 14 points 1 year ago
[–] vaultdweller013@sh.itjust.works 10 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Blow up the radical zionists and hamas, maybe blood eagle the prime minister of Israel (I am not even gonna try to spell his name) threaten to bomb Tel Aviv if Israel tries anything again. Best idea I have.

[–] S_204@lemmy.world 8 points 1 year ago

Pm of Israel and the leader of Hamas in a hell in the cell cage match? Fight to the death, bare knuckles because they're both obviously savages.

Losing side walks away peacefully.... winner gets shot in the head for being a pos and replaced with a less assholish pm? Step 4: Profit/peace.

Where can you buy tickets?

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[–] Why9@lemmy.world 34 points 1 year ago (3 children)

I condemn and disagree with Hamas as well. The way they've attacked Israel does nothing but invite suffering for both nations involved, especially Palestinians.

But let's be honest. What's Palestine really getting in aid? Hamas, although extreme and definitely a terrorist group, are the only ones fighting back against Israel? I can't remember anyone putting sanctions on Israel and threatening military action if they continue to destroy settlements in Gaza. It's always just a slap on the wrist.

Sure, free Palestine from Hamas, but then what? Israel gets to continue doing what it has been doing for decades? How does that not just create Hamas 2.0?

The people losing their families don't need thoughts and prayers, and aid money to keep them on a life support machine. I'm genuinely looking for an answer here, because for Palestinians, it does seem like Hamas is their only option?

[–] MisterScruffy@lemmy.ml 14 points 1 year ago

Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable

[–] sharkfucker420@lemmy.ml 7 points 1 year ago

Violent revolution is never chosen by the oppressed, it is imposed by the oppressor

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[–] germanatlas@lemmy.blahaj.zone 26 points 1 year ago

Wtf this is way too credible

[–] HolyDuckTurtle@kbin.social 18 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It's been genuinely distressing to see people condoning such horrific behaviour. Thank you for the small dose of sanity.

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[–] Borkingheck@lemmy.world 17 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I've never seen a single person advocating Palenstein ever offer their support for Hamas. Yet social media out pouring suggests otherwise.

It's been weird seeing moral grandstanding from right wingers supporting Israel, because of the war crimes committed by hamas yet when the same thing is reported happening to Ukranians by Russia, its suddenly all fake and we shouldn't get involved and other shinty excuses.

[–] FleetingTit@feddit.de 10 points 1 year ago (1 children)

*Palestine

Palenstein sounds like a castle in Germany.

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[–] Pxtl@lemmy.ca 14 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Over the last few days I've noticed that the Venn diagram "Russia's recent attacks on Ukraine are good, actually" and "Hamas' recent attacks on Israel are good, actually" posters is a circle.

Seriously, whenever you find the most extremist pro-atrocity stuff you can search their names and "ukraine" and find the worst Vatnik crap.

If you're rooting for either team in Israel vs Hamas, I'm giving you the stink-eye.

[–] NightLily@lemmy.basedcount.com 11 points 1 year ago
[–] redcalcium@lemmy.institute 10 points 1 year ago (1 children)

We must achieve peace, by force!

[–] PugJesus@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago

PEACE! THROUGH! POWER!

This is to credible!

[–] MossyFeathers@pawb.social 5 points 1 year ago (5 children)

That's what I find insane. It's like people have lost the ability to say, "what Israel is/was doing was fucked, but also fuck Hamas for mass murder and rape". People get upset when you say, "I feel bad for the Israelis and Palestinians". You're either pro-hamas, anti-israel or pro-israel, anti-hamas. You're either pro-palestine and anti-israel, or anti-palestine and pro-israel.

You know you can be sympathetic to the civilians on both sides and hate the extremists right?

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