A loosely moderated place to ask open-ended questions
If your post meets the following criteria, it's welcome here!
Looking for support?
Looking for a community?
~Icon~ ~by~ ~@Double_A@discuss.tchncs.de~
Here's my take on it:
Hamas exists because the PLO was gaining too much political power for Israel to keep stonewalling them; Hamas was funded by far-right Israeli politicians specifically to prevent the PLO from doing all of what you describe.
maybe I’m too naive
Yes you are. Who is gonna do this "diplomatic lobbying"? The US? Some EU country? Most of the mightiest economic and military powers on earth materially support Israel's genocide, whether it's economically or militarily, because they have important geopolitical interests in keeping Israel going to maintain influence on the west Asia region through it. Don't expect them to stop anytime soon, especially not because you asked them to.
No genocide has ever stopped because other countries asked it, that's literally not a thing. Whether it is the anti-apartheid movement in South Africa, the civil right movement in the US, the independence movements in Vietnam, Algeria, Haiti, etc or even the genocide of Jews and Slavs by Nazi Germany, every oppressive system, from "simple" economic discrimination to outright genocide of entire populations, that were successfully stopped were stopped by resistance movement who didn't hesitate to use violence and warfare when necessary.
Hamas and the other organisations operating in Gaza have a lot of problems and religious extremism and bigotry is certainly a problem, but the thing is, they are the ONLY peoples doing something on the ground about the genocide and stopping Israel from putting their bloody boots on Gazan soil and create settlements there. Calling for dismantling is the materially equivalent to calling for the end of all Palestinian resistance, because regardless of what you think of them they are the resistance. The Palestinians have literally no one else to defend them.
Your call for disbanding them is nothing more than rambling of a spoiled, probably white (sorry for assuming), westerner who who has never experienced them mildest form of discrimination, and want to oppose the Palestinian genocide but who, instead of working with what is available and trying to make it better, has decided to whine that the idea of supporting hooded AK-47 wilding openly Muslim Arab don't make them feel comfy enough. Sorry, but the Palestinians have other more important things to give a fuck about than making you feel all warm and fuzzy inside.
And you are rationalizing this position together with you circle jerk by repeating ad nauseum the insane, unsubstantiated smearing of the resistance peddled by peoples who want to keep the genocide going.
You are also naïve to think that the solution you are proposing would solve anything at all of even change your position on this issue.
Let's assume this happen, Hamas and the other resistance groups are disbanded and a group with whatever aesthetic makes you comfortable is created. What do you think would happen then? That they would win the heart of you spoiled lot and everything will be good? No. Let me tell you what would happen. As soon as this new group start to take actions, the Israeli and western propaganda machine are gonna start getting to work slandering and smearing this new group, accusing it of every sin just like they did with Hamas, and you peoples are gonna swallow it all like you always do and start asking to dissolve this new group too.
You are one of the "white moderates" that Martin Lutter King Jr denounced: Just like you are today against Hamas and the Houthis for "being terrorists", if you were alive and/or following the events back then, you would have been against Nelson Mandela for "killing innocent whites peoples", you would have been against MLK and Malcolm X for "disturbing the peace and organising illegal and violent protests", you may not like it but this is the position you are defending right now regarding the genocide of Palestinians.
Realistically I think the only option for Palestinians to keep the West Bank and Gaza is for the us to enforce a 2 state solution (basically guarantee the safety of both nations from attack).
Part of the issue with Gaza is Israel is scared if they stop policing the border/sea/air they will be armed by Iran and then attack, some third party has to ensure their defense in order for them to stop.
It isn’t an ideal solution in any sense of the word but at least it could relieve the suffering of the Palestinians and give them the ability to self govern in the places they have left.
I don't think Lemmy is powerful enough to enforce that.
Not with that attitude us is not!
Here’s a decent framework in my opinion.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
a decent framework in my opinion
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source; check me out at GitHub.
I dont feel that a two state solution would actually fix things. Creating a Palestinian state would be incredibly difficult, it’s why attempts to do so have failed. Israel would object to all but the most disfavorable terms for the Palestinians, and as seen in the past, Palestinians will object to disfavorable terms.
Forcing a two state solution on them will not work either, wherever state lines have been drawn in the past there has been conflict because of those borders.
A Palestinian state would also give some legitimacy for Israel to create conflicts with them, and due to their hyper-militization and incredible intelligence capabilities (much less, the capabilities of the USA helping them out) would certainly make any conflicts with the fledgling nation. There will be no peace when there is official means for the two sides to fight amongst them selves, especially when adding religion, border disputes, and Israel’s history of oppression.
Ideally, as an anarchist, I’d love a no state solution, as it would be impossible for state mechanisms to oppress any group of people with no state. But I think that is not geopolitically feasible because states like states, and creating a stateless society would harm the legitimacy of states themselves.
Realistically, I think a one-state solution is necessary, but not in the sense of making it an ethnostate for any one group. We would need to follow in the footsteps of attempts to do similar tasks, be it the de-apartheidization of south africa, as well as from the horrors America did in the wake of reconstruction and their colonial expansion, abd various other former setteler-colonial countries. And we should certainly learn from the mistakes of the past. Speaking as an American, with an American-centric view, I think the best way forward is decolonization.
Israel is rightfully concerned by becoming the minority, they’ve done unspeakable evils to Palestinians, and many Israelis think they are beyond forgiveness, that they are too far gone. Combine that with a long history of minority jewish groups being oppressed by many states all over the world, and their anxiety on this is very understandable.
However, as long as there is oppression, there will not be peace. Putting a minority group on par with a majority group gives an unequal advantage to the minority, but letting the minority group get trampled is just as bad. I think that in order to protect the religious rights, the state must be secular, and it must have inalienable rights enshrined to everyone equally.
I think the only way to lower tensions is for Palestinians to forgive Israelis, and the only way for that to happen is for Israel to make up for their crimes. State leaders should be prosecuted, war criminals should be prosecuted, and Israel should fund the repairs needed to provide housing to Gazans, and Palestinians who fled. Palestinians should be able to return to their homelands, and if their homes still exist, they should return to them. If this involves kicking out an Israeli, the state should fund housing for them.
This isn’t a complete plan by any means, and I don’t want to insinuate that it is. This is just my statist idea on how peace could be achieved, even if I believe that a stateless anarchist revolution would do waaaay better.
Free Palestine. FTRTTS
Violence is the only option, even if you don't like it. Ask Nelson Mandela.
Alternatively, like in Canada, have your people become the majority and give them Independence, and forget about the destruction of the natives.
Liberation will never be given to you by your oppressor.
I mean, the Olmert proposal was an opportunity. The 2005 Israeli withdrawal from Gaza was an opportunity. It doesn't seem that "freedom" was good enough for Palestinians back then.
Netanyahu has been winning because Israeli attempts at peace never seem to work.
The Olmert proposal where Israel wanted to keep 10% of the West Bank (not that we know much about the proposal or why it failed, but from that point it's a no-go)? And what opportunity in 2005 they fucking blockaded the place as soon as they left.
How much land do you think Ukraine should cede for peace? How much control should Russia have in Ukraine's government in exchange for ending the occupation?
These are honest questions, I would like to know what you and others think.
Also, are you aware of Palestine's proposal to respect the 1967 borders, which Israel rejected?