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Meh, most of the BEV's available are big inefficient wallowing SUV's with hefty price tags regardless of the clean car discount.
I'm hoping some of the Chinese manufacturers will bring affordable sedan or station wagon BEV's to the market. Lighter, better aerodynamics, more range for the same battery size.
Not interested in hybrids, the worst of both worlds
I just cannot bring myself to trust my life to a Chinese car.
I have done business there. I know what it's like. It does not fill me with confidence.
Also it's one thing to be spied on by ad companies (which is bad enough) but quite another to be spied on by an adversarial dictatorship.
Exactly. Same reason I won't use Chinese brand phones.
That seems like a silly worry to me. I would be more concerned about what my own country or a corporation or the USA could do to me than China. Think about it. The USA could charge me with something like copyright violation and boom I get arrested just like that. China accuses me of a crime and the government won't do shit.
I'm sure they won't do shit, but why would I let a foreign entity that EMPHATICALLY only cares about itself access to my information when I don't have to?
Corporations spy on us too, and this is motivated by profit. The Chinese government is much more insidious. If I were a Chinese expat, for example, I should genuinely be concerned about them finding information on me and arresting me when I visit there.
I’m sure they won’t do shit, but why would I let a foreign entity that EMPHATICALLY only cares about itself access to my information when I don’t have to?
You are doing that now though.
The Chinese government is much more insidious. If I were a Chinese expat, for example, I should genuinely be concerned about them finding information on me and arresting me when I visit there.
I am not a chinese expat though. I have literally zero concern that China is going to get me or do anything to me let alone care about me.
OTOH I am very afraid to attend a protest or even accidentally cross the street during a protest because I know I will go on some list and my face will be recorded by our own government.
You are doing that now though.
I trust the NZ government a lot more than the CCP, and you should too.
I am not a chinese expat though. I have literally zero concern that China is going to get me or do anything to me let alone care about me.
Neither am I, but I can recognize the terrible actions taken by that government, and not want to support it in any way.
OTOH I am very afraid to attend a protest or even accidentally cross the street during a protest because I know I will go on some list and my face will be recorded by our own government.
Why? Are you seriously trying to compare the New Zealand, or any western government, to the CCP? If you are, then I seriously doubt you understand quite how bad the CCP is.
I trust the NZ government a lot more than the CCP, and you should too.
Depends on the topic. I trust NZ government more than the CCP in most things but I fear the NZ government more than I fear the CCP because the NZ government exercises more power over me than the CCP does.
BTW why do you keep ignoring the other evil empire in the picture? I trust the US government less than I trust both the NZ government and the CCP.
Neither am I, but I can recognize the terrible actions taken by that government, and not want to support it in any way.
Cough Israel, cough Saudi Arabia.
Why?
Because I don't want to be on the list of known dissidents the government keeps.
Are you seriously trying to compare the New Zealand, or any western government, to the CCP?
Yes.
If you are, then I seriously doubt you understand quite how bad the CCP is.
As bad as they are they can not exert any power over me. OTOH both the NZ government and the US government can exert tremendous amount of power over me.
This is not a contest of who is worse the USA wins that hands down. This is a contest of who can harm me personally the most and who I should be afraid of the most.
BTW why do you keep ignoring the other evil empire in the picture? I trust the US government less than I trust both the NZ government and the CCP.
This is not a contest of who is worse the USA wins that hands down. This is a contest of who can harm me personally the most and who I should be afraid of the most.
Now I know you don't fully grasp how bad the CCP is.
The US government is pretty corrupt. But it is absolutely nothing like the CCP. Does the US government disappear political opponents? Does it require all companies over a certain size to have official party officers on staff, to ensure they are 'paying their dues' and not becoming too powerful. Does it fund infrastructure projects to debt riddled countries so that they have no choice but to sell them all their mineral wealth? Does the US government actively genocide ethnic minorities? Seriously, they are both bad, but the CCP is much worse.
Cough Israel, cough Saudi Arabia.
What?
Because I don't want to be on the list of known dissidents the government keeps.
🙄
This is a contest of who can harm me personally the most and who I should be afraid of the most.
The US has no control over you, unless you are a citizen there. What are you afraid of?
Now I know you don’t fully grasp how bad the CCP is.
You keep moving the goalpost. CCP is bad, not as bad as the USA, not as bad Saudi Arabia, not as bad as South Korea, not as bad as Israel.
The US government is pretty corrupt.
LOL. "pretty corrupt".
Does the US government disappear political opponents?
It kills them with drone strikes. Also tortures them.
Does it require all companies over a certain size to have official party officers on staff, to ensure they are ‘paying their dues’ and not becoming too powerful.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_security_letter
Does it fund infrastructure projects to debt riddled countries so that they have no choice but to sell them all their mineral wealth?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confessions_of_an_Economic_Hit_Man
Does the US government actively genocide ethnic minorities?
Yes, by helping Israel and Saudi Arabia and Yemen do it.
The US has no control over you, unless you are a citizen there. What are you afraid of?
You keep moving the goalpost. CCP is bad, not as bad as the USA, not as bad Saudi Arabia, not as bad as South Korea, not as bad as Israel.
I'm not moving anything. You started using whataboutism to compare China to the US. "The US is worse" and all that. While I disagree with you about this, it doesn't matter. Multiple things can be true at once. China is bad. The US is bad. Israel is bad. These are all, simultaneously, true.
LOL. "pretty corrupt".
Yes, pretty corrupt. They are still a government that follows laws. This is why Trump is currently facing legal problems instead of successfully overthrowing Biden in a coup. Currently, Biden cannot pass certain laws because it still requires both the Senate and the House to pass a new law.
You understand that the CCP is a dictatorship right? Single party with absolute control? These things are not the same.
It kills them with drone strikes. Also tortures them.
Terrorists and enemy combatants, yes. Not political opponents though. Is Biden ordering his political opponents locked up and tortured? No? These things are not the same.
From your link: "By law, NSLs can request only non-content information, for example, transactional records and phone numbers dialed, but never the content of telephone calls or e-mails."
I am not arguing that the US does not do bad things, but that it is not comparable to the CCP. The US still generally tries to follow its own laws. The CCP can and does do whatever it wants.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confessions_of_an_Economic_Hit_Man
Lol, this is a book which is widely discredited. The author is a conspiracy theorist, and little if anything of his claims have been verified. I would not use that book as your source of information.
Yes, by helping Israel and Saudi Arabia and Yemen do it.
If you do not see how these are not the same thing then we may as well move on.
Kimdotcom
So a very high profile person who flagrantly broke the law in multiple jurisdictions has led to the US asking for extradition, which is a thing many countries will do, and is still here. This is your example? Are you a high profile owner of a massive piracy platform? No?
While I share your concerns about local spying, giving a foreign entity a real time feed of every street, every passing licenseplate (via on board cameras) etc. seems like a bad idea. You should absolutely be vigilant against your own government as well. But China has shown many times in the past to use whatever means available to gather data for example on dissidents living abroad. That's not a silly worry, it's a daily occurrence.
While I share your concerns about local spying, giving a foreign entity a real time feed of every street, every passing licenseplate (via on board cameras) etc. seems like a bad idea
Did you mean say "foreign entity" or "China". Because we already give that information to a foreign entity, multiple foreign agencies in fact.
But China has shown many times in the past to use whatever means available to gather data for example on dissidents living abroad. That’s not a silly worry, it’s a daily occurrence.
It's a silly worry for me because I am not a chinese dissident living abroad.
Well that's up to you. I'm no dissident either but I have family in Taiwan so you'll understand if I take it more personally. China can easily decide you (or your neighbors) need spying on for reasons unknown to you.
Well that’s up to you. I’m no dissident either but I have family in Taiwan so you’ll understand if I take it more personally.
Sure I guess. Is China arresting or kidnapping people in Taiwan or something?
China can easily decide you (or your neighbors) need spying on for reasons unknown to you.
I am 100% convinced they are spying on as many people as possible but I am also 100% convinced that the number of people they spy on is much less than the number of people the USA is spying on. I am 100% convinced that the USA is spying on me, is recording this conversation, records my phone calls, and has a history of every web site I visited and what I did at those web sites and every call I made and every text I sent. I don't think the Chinese intelligence agencies have the same capability or reach that the US intelligence agencies have. Not even close.
Sure I guess. Is China arresting or kidnapping people in Taiwan or something?
I haven't heard of people being abducted from Taiwan, but friends were detained while transferring flights in Hong Kong over some China-critical social media posts.
... have the same capability or reach that the US intelligence agencies have
Fair but while America is far from squeaky clean, I've never avoided traveling via one of their airports for fear of something I said about their president on social media. And if they did I wouldn't, except in extreme cases, disappear from the face of the earth with my family having no idea what happened to me. China does these things routinely. Even to very prominent members of their own society.
Look if you say "I'm not involved, it's not my problem" that's fair enough. But to say there's no difference between the US (which I fully acknowledge does lots of bad things) and China is missing the plot a bit.
Sure I guess. Is China arresting or kidnapping people in Taiwan or something?
In Taiwan itself? No. When they transit through China, or friendly countries? Yes, emphatically.
I am 100% convinced they are spying on as many people as possible but I am also 100% convinced that the number of people they spy on is much less than the number of people the USA is spying on. I am 100% convinced that the USA is spying on me, is recording this conversation, records my phone calls, and has a history of every web site I visited and what I did at those web sites and every call I made and every text I sent. I don't think the Chinese intelligence agencies have the same capability or reach that the US intelligence agencies have. Not even close.
You would be wrong about most of this. The Chinese government has one of the most sophisticated spying networks in the world. Remember this: all large Chinese companies have CCP officers with complete access to all information.
I feel like you haven't been to the US. Companies collect personal info, yes, but the US government isn't out there wiretapping the entire world. Real life isn't like the CIA movies, mate.
In Taiwan itself? No. When they transit through China, or friendly countries? Yes, emphatically.
Well I am neither Taiwanese nor am I traveling through China so....
You would be wrong about most of this.
I don't think so. The exploits of the NSA have been widely reported. Nowhere close to the USA or even Israel.
Remember this: all large Chinese companies have CCP officers with complete access to all information.
All US companies are subject to US laws which allow for full and free access to all information from those companies. Aside from that the NSA has code in all the routers, all the sim cards, all the hard drive firmware etc. Again all this has been widely published.
I feel like you haven’t been to the US.
I have actually but I don't see why that's relevant. You really think people gain knowledge once they step off the airplane into the USA?
. Companies collect personal info, yes, but the US government isn’t out there wiretapping the entire world.
It sounds like you are not very aware of what's been happening.
You probably trust your life to chinese made parts in your current car.
Absolutely, but those are parts which are subject to overseas QA, standards and testing. For example, I have a Toyota. Chinese made parts must meet their strict quality control, must adhere to safety standards, etc.
I know first hand that, in China, regulations and standards can be bypassed with the correct payments. I do not trust that they have not done so, especially when there are other, better, choices.
We are talking about a country that has things like Melamine laced baby formula quite frequently. How did these things pass regulators and testing? Bribary.
I know first hand that, in China, regulations and standards can be bypassed with the correct payments. I do not trust that they have not done so, especially when there are other, better, choices.
The cars that are exported here must meet our standards.
That's fine if you're happy to drive one, I don't really care. Personally I won't.
They can say they meet regulations all they won't, but the number of times corners are cut in China to make a few extra bucks makes me look elsewhere.
This is all not to mention not wanting to support the CCP in any way, and the CCP has fingers in all the large companies in China.
That’s fine if you’re happy to drive one, I don’t really care. Personally I won’t.
You do you boo. It seems like the rest of the country doesn't agree with you too much.
But hey you hate China and I guess that's one badge you can wear with honor.
I never said anyone else had to listen to me. I said, originally, that I wouldn't drive a Chinese company.
And I want to be very clear here. I don't hate China. I greatly distrust the Chinese government, and the culture of bribary, lying, cheating and scamming that has gone along with it. I also do not hate it because it's popular to do so online. I have this view because of direct, personal, experience with Chinese companies and the government there.
Simply put, Chinese companies have and will make important stuff out of sub-par materials to make a buck, and lie, cheat and bribe their way to market. And then people die. This is not paranoia, this is something that happens all the time there.
So you don't hate china but you hate the chinese government and everybody in china who works for any company that makes any product.
That's not at all what I said.
It's exactly what you said. Who do you think is making sure the chinese cars are going to kill you when you get in them if not the workers?
Nio seems to be the one making waves that no one in NZ has heard of as they don't operate here. They are doing the Tesla promise of swapable batteries for real life, with a network of swap stations. Imagine buying a car and knowing you can in future swap the battery for a longer range one, one with better health, not to mention long range batteries from empty to fully charged in minutes.
The only reason I've heard of Nio was because I bought shares in them a couple of years ago. I sold when I doubled my money, which looks like it was a good move considering how low it is now!
Tom Scott made a video where he tested an automatic swap station:
He also mentions the company is hemorrhaging money at the moment.
Yeah, that is normal for a VC funded company
That's awesome! I hadn't seen that video before. Looks pretty impressive, though I'd be curious for more details about the subscriptions. Do you get charged for use or whether you use it or not?
You lease the battery pack from them, from my understanding, so yes.
PHEVs are the best of both worlds for me living in an apartment with limited charging capacity.
We have two shared charges for PHEVs, they can be used for four hours maximum per day, this means that I can drive in EV mode to and from the shops as well as to my parents house, if I need to go further, I turn on Hybrid mode and it gives me great milage for a long time.
I can't imagine why increasing the price of something by $7000 would suppress demand for it
Nobody in this government understands economics apparently.
Oh I'm pretty sure they do. The intended outcome was achieved
I would imagine that people in the market for an EV would have bought it already last december, before the funding was cancelled.
My thoughts too. From memory sales of double cab utes also surged immediately before and plummeted immediately after the prices went up as expected due to their high emissions.
We had planned a new vehicle late this year, changing the price by $7k makes a huge difference to the calculations.
I had a BEV on the budget for late this year (move banks to get a low-interest loan + some savings once the mortgage comes off fixed), isn't practical with the price increase, so will back burner that plan for a couple of years and hope prices drop a bit
Every time there is a government incentive, the car prices go up. So the discount just goes into the dealer's pocket.
That certainly wasn't true in this case. The incentive was capped so car manufacturers made sure their cars were priced under the cap.