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!ukpolitics@lemm.ee appears to have vanished! We can still see cached content from this link, but goodbye I guess! :'(
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I'm still waiting for evidence of this supposed "apartheid" that people keep going on about.
Before October 7th, Palestinians would regularly be welcomed across the border to live and work in Israel if they so wished. Just that simple fact blows the "apartheid" or "prison state" arguments out.
Like genocide, oppression is another thing Israel aren't very good at.
It has been evidenced and been in discourse widely and long enough to have its own wikipedia entry. Human rights organizations like Amnesty International have definitely made the case. What evidence are you waiting for?
They want you to do all the work for them just so they can say "tl;dr"
In a non-apartheid state, you wouldn't have to ask and there wouldn't be a border based on your religion. They literally control their movement between zones, and getting permits takes months. It's text book apartheid.
Just look up the marriage laws in Israel.
*Edit because I was being rude.
Have you ever tried living and working in another country before? Because this is literally what you have to do everywhere.
Interesting terminology.
So when the National Party government in South Africa imposed restrictions on travel between made-up areas that basically nobody else in the world recognized as separate countries, that was also not apartheid?
The border isn't based on religion. Gaza strip is not part of Israel.
The reason it's 99% Muslims is because they murdered everyone else.
If you want to cross between countries you have to go through a border check. Like I can't just go visit the USA without getting visa first.
Although I think Palestine should be an independant country, if it was not part of the apartheid state of israel, they would have full control over their own borders.
It is not the same as a border check specifically since it's part of the same country, hence why Israel is an apartheid state.
You both are really close to understanding the problem here, you just have to dig a bit deeper.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_freedom_of_movement#:~:text=Israel%20enforces%20restrictions%20on%20the,usage%20of%20roads%20by%20Palestinians.
Read this whole article, and actually read it for real, don't skim it and pretend. It's insane to compare it to any kind of international border because it simply isn't.
Gaza strip was part of Egypt till the six days war. Egypt refused to take it back. Israel refused to pass law expending their border to include Gaza strip and in 2005 made it illegal for their citizens be stay there.
What in this chain of events makes you think they are the same country?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip#:~:text=The%20territory%20has%20been%20under%20Israeli%20occupation%20since%201967.&text=De%20facto%20administered%20by%20Hamas,IDF%20since%2027%20October%202023.
Having administration privileges while being blockaded is different then being an actual independant country. They couldn't even build ports or access to most of their waters for fishing.
None of this is defendable. Take a hard look at the behavior you are making excuses for. Israel seriously sucks.
Israel left Gaza in 2005, and placed no blockade. Hamas to power in 2007 and broke all past agreements with Israel and started to launch rockets into Israel. This lead to the blockade.
The civilian population is no shield against a blockade.
If you started to fire your gun on my home at random hours I would have locked your door from the outside and set your home on fire with, or without, your family inside. This is common sense.
You are justifying an apartheid state, none of what you are saying is disproving the fact that Israel is one.
The civilian population shouldn't have to deal with a blockade, indiscriminate bombing, apartheid or genocide.
That's the point. This isn't taking care of business or self defense, it's ethnic cleansing.
You are mixing the west bank and Gaza 🤦♂️
There is no apartheid in Gaza, as no part of Gaza is under Israeli management. Israel placed a blockade on Gaza from the sea (and not from Egypt) because Hamas was firing rockets (indiscriminately BTW) into it civilian population.
There is an apartheid in the West Bank with the Jewish variation of Nazim running the show. That should stop. But that happens in the West Bank, where less than 6% of Israeli live.
The 7th of October attack was imitated from Gaza, by Hamas, which see both Israel and Fatah as enemies (Hamas throw Fatah people off roof tops in 2007, that how they got into power).
You are justifying an islamfascist body asymmetrical war on a neighboring country. By mixing geogrphy.
I'm not sure if you are troll, or mentally retarded.
Open air prison, apartheid and genocide. Go shill for netanyahu somewhere else.
Fuck Netanyahu, fuck his Nazi government, fuck Hamas, fuck every Hamas supporter, fuck every person that cheered on the 7th of October, fuck every person that went to burn houses in the west bank, and fuck you, for spreading hate and thinking (you are bad at that part) that a highly complex conflict that goes back hundreds of years is one sided.
hey, they never said it was one-sided. the comments above were merely refusing to acknowledge israel as an apartheid state… it can both be true that israel is an apartheid state committing genocide, AND that hamas launched indiscriminate rockets into israel and both those things can be indefensible
The person above you claimed I work for Netanyahu. Hell no.
Hamas seized power after a civil war, brought on by an attempted coup by the PA backed by the US and Israel. This attempted coup led to the Hamas attacks on Israel. They did not randomly break all agreements and started shooting rockets.
Hamas was always deeply unhappy with the Israeli presence, but they hadn't become really openly violent before that point.
What the fuck is this insane statement. Call the police?
Hamas' charter calls for the destruction of Israel and death to all Jews. They showed previously to 2006 that those are not empty words. In 2006, after the elections, they refused to respect previews agreements Israel made with the PA and then they dug a tunnel into Israel and kidnapped an Israeli soldier.
All the while not paying salaries to the PA defence forces and keeping a private military body.
There was no coup, no one wanted to continue working with them after that. So the president of the PA replaced the prime minister.
There is no police for international matters.
You have some reading to do.
There is, it's called a UN Peacekeeping Force.
The battle of Gaza in 2007 happened after Hamas dried the PA security and opened a war on Israel by kidnapping a soldier from within Israel through a tunnel.
The uselessness of the UN Peacekeeping Force is the reason Israel and HA are at war, again. They failed to enforce 1701.
If to judge by other places in the world, they were probably too busy taking bribes and sexually abusing the locals.
Gaza has never stopped being under Israeli occupation since 1967. Hamas only exists because of the Apartheid Occupation of Israel and the daily violence that has subjected Palestinians to for generations. Israel has always been the obstacle for peace, and has been the one preventing a ceasefire.
It is not '99% Muslim because they murdered everyone else' that's an insane racist lie. Read Palestine: A Four Thousand Year History by Nur Masalha
De-development via the Gaza Occupation
Page 402
The Gaza Strip: The Political Economy of De-Development - Third Edition by Sara M. Roy
Blockade, including Aid
Hamas began twenty years into the occupation during the first Intifada, with the goal of ending the occupation. Collective punishment has been a deliberate Israeli tactic for decades with the Dahiya doctrine. Violence such as suicide bombings and rockets escalated in response to Israeli enforcement of the occupation and apartheid.
After the 'disengagement' in 2007, this turned into a full blockade; where Israel has had control over the airspace, borders, and sea. Under the guise of 'dual-use' Israel has restricted food, allocating a minimum supply leading to over half of Gaza being food insecure; construction materials, medical supplies, and other basic necessities have also been restricted.
Peace Process and Solution
Both Hamas and Fatah have agreed to a Two-State solution based on the 1967 borders for decades. Oslo and Camp David were used by Israel to continue settlements in the West Bank and maintain an Apartheid, while preventing any actual Two-State solution
How Avi Shlaim moved from two-state solution to one-state solution
‘One state is a game changer’: A conversation with Ilan Pappe
One State Solution, Foreign Affairs
Hamas proposed a full prisoner swap as early as Oct 8th, and agreed to the US proposed UN Permanent Ceasefire Resolution. Additionally, Hamas has already agreed to no longer govern the Gaza Strip, as long as Palestinians receive liberation and a unified government can take place.
Human Shields
Hamas:
HRW on Laws-of-War Violations 2009
Agency Demands Full Respect for the Sanctity of Its Premises in Gaza - July 2014
HRW - Palestinian Armed Groups’ October 7 Assault on Israel
Israel:
Israel/OPT: Israeli attacks targeting Hamas and other armed group fighters that killed scores of displaced civilians in Rafah should be investigated as war crimes
HRW - Gaza: Unlawful Israeli Hospital Strikes Worsen Health Crisis
Additionally, there is extensive independent verification of Israel using Palestinians as Human Shields:
IDF uses Human Shields,
Including Children (2013 Report)
Israel “Systematically” Uses Gaza Children as Human Shields, Rights Group Finds 2024
Breaking The Silence - Testimonies from IDF Veterans
Deliberate Attacks on Civilians
Israel deliberately targets civilian areas. From in general with the Dahiya Doctrine to multiple systems deployed in Gaza to do so:
The Dahiya Doctrine & Israel’s Use of Disproportionate Force
‘A mass assassination factory’: Inside Israel’s calculated bombing of Gaza
Lavender
Where's Daddy
Israel also targets Israeli Soldiers and Civilians to prevent them being leveraged as hostages, known as the Hannibal Directive. Which was also used on Oct 7th.
Let break it down.
False, Israel left Gaza in 2005, the blockade started after Hamas fired rockets into Israel.
False, Hamas is a modern, local, branch of the Muslim Brotherhood. A movement that was already active in the area in 1929 (1929 Palestine riots).
This is why Israel has peace with Jordan and Egypt. Yes. Also, remind me, who broke the ceasefire on 2006? On 2023? Not Israel.
Like the Jewish people that lived in Gaza in 1929? Like the Jewish people of Zfat in (1834 looting of Safed as an example, there are more)? The Christian population in most, if not all, Muslim controlled territories has declined due to persecution by Muslims.
True, already gave quotes and sources
Also true. Hamas was established during the First intifada against the Israeli occupation in 1987, and has its origins in Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood movement, which had been active in the Gaza Strip since the 1950s and gained influence through a network of mosques and various charitable and social organizations.
Because they are US client States. Peace with Jordan and Egypt never meant peace with Palestinians. In fact quite the opposite, it's enabled Israel to continue the daily violence of Occupation and Apartheid.
There is no peace under a violent occupation and Apartheid. Palestinians have never been able to live in peace. Anti-colonialist violence is bound to happen in response to Colonialism.
1929 Riots
pg 138
A History of Modern Palestine - Ilan Pappe
Those pogroms in 1834 was certainly motivated by Antisemitism, exploited under the conditions of Egyptian occupation. But no, you cannot paint the an entire people as antisemitic because of this.
Other Historian Works on the History
Palestine: A Four Thousand Year History - Nur Masalha
The Concept of Transfer 1882-1948 - Nur Masalha
The Hundred Years' War on Palestine - Rashid Khalidi
The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine - Ilan Pappe
The 1967 Arab-Israeli War: Origins and Consequences - Avi Shlaim
The Biggest Prison on Earth: A History of the Occupied Territories - Ilan Pappe
The Gaza Strip: The Political Economy of De-development - Sara Roy
10 Myths About Israel - Ilan Pappe (summery)
Are really going after the words of grade F pseudo historians of the like of Nur Masalha? LOL
What a waste of time
That's a pathetic attempt to discredit Nur Masalha's tremendous amount of credentials and works as a historian. You have no clue what you're talking about, as evident by your lack of interest in source materials about the subject, including reports by Human Rights Organizations and books by Israeli and Palestinian historians.
A. Having credentials does not mean one produces quality work. The academic system is broken.
B. I ignore all 'sources' that skip basic inconvenient facts to support their narrative.
C. The basic facts of the region include brutality and conflict from all sides. The Palestinians are not some holy angels. They were fucked by history, but they are not victims.
D. There is no one consistent definition of Palestinian. Even UNRWA made a mess of the matter. For example, they included Arab job seekers that got stuck in the region.
E. Point D. is important, as a more consists definition is required. For a long term solution. One that is not 'from the river to the sea' or forever war. We are entering into a period of rapid changes (not for the better) due to climate change. If no solution will be found soon, there will never be one. As we are losing our ability to build.
F. If someone feel joy from mass murder (covering it up in terms like resistance dose not change what it is) he is a stain on humanity.
I will read your next reply, but will not reply to it.
You've already openly admitted to being willfully ignorant by ignoring these sources, so it's no surprise you ignore the overwhelming about of facts about Zionism and Palestine.
The slogan From the River to the Sea is about Palestinian liberation that started in the 60s by the PLO for a democratic secular state, not Genocide. The Syrian leader Hafez al-Assad in 1966 maybe, but he's not Palestinian.
Apartheid Evidence
Amnesty Report
Human Rights Watch Report
B'TSelem Report with quick Explainer
Historian Works on the History
Palestine: A Four Thousand Year History - Nur Masalha
The Concept of Transfer 1882-1948 - Nur Masalha
A History of Modern Palestine - Ilan Pappe
The Hundred Years' War on Palestine - Rashid Khalidi
The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine - Ilan Pappe
The 1967 Arab-Israeli War: Origins and Consequences - Avi Shlaim
The Biggest Prison on Earth: A History of the Occupied Territories - Ilan Pappe
The Gaza Strip: The Political Economy of De-development - Sara Roy
10 Myths About Israel - Ilan Pappe (summery)
Documentaries
A shocking insight into Israel's Apartheid | Roadmap to Apartheid | Full Film
Palestine 101 with Abby Martin
Life in Occupied PALESTINE by Anna Baltzer
How Israeli Apartheid Destroyed My Hometown
The Gaza Ghetto Uprising
Anti-Semitism, Weaponized.
One year of Israel’s war on Gaza: Al Jazeera special coverage
Palestine 1920: The Other Side of the Palestinian Story | Al Jazeera World Documentary
The existence of Hamas, and any armed resistance movement, is directly due to the decades of violence experienced daily under the permanent occupation, the Apartheid State, of Israel. It's impossible to understand their existence if you don't understand the lived experience and material conditions they are forced to live under. There is no such thing as a perfect victim when it comes to anti-Colonialist resistance, not for the Vietcong, the IRA, or the ANC either. Can you condemn the violence of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising in the same way as the violence of the Warsaw Ghetto?
In the Shadow of the Holocaust by Masha Gessen, the situation in Gaza is compared to the Warsaw Ghettos. The comparison was also made by a Palestinian poet who was later killed by an Israeli airstrike. Adi Callai, an Israeli, has also written on the parallels in his article The Gaza Ghetto Uprising and expanded upon in his corresponding video
https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution
https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/12/05/does-israels-treatment-palestinians-rise-level-apartheid