this post was submitted on 18 Nov 2024
656 points (94.2% liked)
196
16539 readers
2367 users here now
Be sure to follow the rule before you head out.
Rule: You must post before you leave.
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
The way I understand the meme, it's not saying anti-imperialism is wrong. It's saying that being a tankie, i.e. simping for china and russia doesn't qualify as anti-imperialism.
As near as I can tell, advocating for peaceful, dovish, isolationist policies is enough for someone to be considered a tankie (ironically enough). WWI era socialists who did not fall in line behind their governments certainly faced similar accusations.
Since neither Russia nor China is peaceful, dovish, or isolationist, what are you on about?
And there you have it. If you advocate for peaceful, dovish, isolationist policies, you are a tankie because you're letting other nations that aren't those things win. The exact same logic that caused "leftists" to rally around their own imperialist governments in WWI. Germany wasn't socialist, so why should the British socialists let them win? Britain wasn't socialist, so why should the German socialists let them win?
The Defeat of One's Own Government in the Imperialist War, V.I. Lenin
That's an extremely longwinded way to avoid the question.
You asked what I'm on about and I told you what I'm on about. No question avoided.
You posted all that, and didn’t even answer the damn question.
What question did I not answer?
If the question is 'what are you on about' pretty much any answer is valid.
You know what the question is. We both know you aren’t stupid.
I answered that. What I said is what I'm on about.
Maybe you can rephrase that to mean something clearer, if my answer isn't what you're looking for?
Neither Russia or China are peaceful, dovish, or isolationist. You know that, you aren’t an idiot. The fact that you don’t care, and are only ignoring imperialism when it’s a nation you like doing it is what makes you a tankie, and a hypocrite.
I feel like I answered literally exactly this in my response.
What you're saying is exactly what British social democrats would have said to people opposing the war, that Germany isn't peaceful, dovish, or isolationist, that they know that, they don't care, and are only ignoring imperialism when Germany does it, and it's also what German social democrats would have said to people opposing the war, that Britain isn't peaceful, dovish, or isolationist, that they know that, they don't care, and are only ignoring imperialism when Britain does it, and so on.
You’re still avoiding the question. How are you advocating for “peaceful, dovish, and isolationist” countries if neither Russia or China is any of those things?
And don't keep trying that “well that’s just your viewpoint” bullshit. You and I both know neither of those countries could be objectively described with any of those adjectives, no matter how much you want to try to justify them.
I never said, "well that's just your viewpoint," or anything like that. Not sure where you're getting that from.
I answered the question very clearly. Advocating for peace necessarily means rejecting the idea that a given war is necessary to confront foreign threats. Peace advocates in every conflict, by every side, are frequently labeled as traitors who support the worst offenses of the other side, "you're either with us or with the terrorists," as Bush said. The tankie label is simply another form of this. I don't see what's confusing about that.
Eugene Debs went to prison for that exact reason.