this post was submitted on 17 Aug 2023
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Hmm can someone tell me if I'm just in a "republicans are hysteric about it so it must not be that bad" mindset?
It's obviously spyware to some degree, but this really seems more like a case of red-scare. I can't put my finger on exactly why, though. Makes me think I might just be reacting to their reaction.
I guess, what exactly are they afraid that China is going to do with this data? It's a missing puzzle piece that I've heard nothing coherent on besides "China gonna spy on muh datas". Like, sure, maybe if you're a government official, and I don't think bans of tiktok on government devices are stupid, but I think the nationwide ban idea is pretty dumb and baseless. So I guess my actual question is, what are they afraid of happening, exactly?
...then they aught to ban every app with user generated content. YouTube might be the biggest propaganda vector we have right now, and the powers that be would not be able to tell which nation is pumping out anti-us videos due to it being so easy to lie about stuff like that.
That's quite a bad response if that's really the reason. If they're worried about propaganda, the best defense against it is education on what is propaganda, and how to spot it, not banning a single vector of it when so many others exist already.
This only supports my theory that this is red-scare nonsense (though please let me know if I misunderstood, I really do want to understand)
I think the propaganda fear isn’t necessarily due to user content, but rather the algorithm being set to intentionally push certain content/narratives that China wants pushed. Politicians don’t target YouTube because it’s not China setting the algorithm, it’s an American corporation and politicians like that. Personally I don’t have any real opinions on TikTok, although I wish all social media killed their algorithms that seem intentionally designed to push radical content (because clicks).
Algorithms push content to produce engagement and retention. If someone is getting radicalized by algorithms it’s because they are engaged by the radicalism.
My TikTok fyp (algorithmic content) is full of artists - mostly vocals and strings, but some brass too, along with Creepy Dave animal videos and a few British (and British style humor)comedy sketches. It’s quite enjoyable. I think the only political content I can remember is a couple of Jeff Jackson videos (NC US House if Rep), and that’s because I looked him up after my wife forwarded me one of his online bits.
People who get radicalized are ripe for picking, not converted. And if we are concerned about SM, we need to outlaw most talking head TV and talk radio along with it.
The algorithm literally just shows you shit you like.
I argue the government is nefarious for using propaganda instead of the facts of the matter to sway public opinion. (This opinion extends to any government, which likely means every government because, in my general assumption, power holders seem to be unable to not lie to hold on to and amass more power.)
At this point, I can't really argue with your point, you're right, but I sure hate it regardless.
As for your edit, I don't think that really applies. It'd make sense if the issue was voting for someone from China vs someone from the US, but this is more like "who's allowed to spy on you? Our creepy guy who has a higher chance of doing something with the info they spied from you or this other creepy offshores guy who is less likely to do anything with that info (but the offshore guys are creepier! And worse!!! Trust me, bro!!!!)"
In your example, obviously I'd rather the guy who is invested in the neighborhood to some degree so if it turns to shit, he's going down with it. In my example, I'd much rather the guy who's not.
Ah I can't really argue with that.
Republicans "trust me, bro"'d the US into shitty situations time and time again, and I'm slightly worried if we give them the ability to ban apps, they will not stop until the only shit left is Truth Social. They love their fucking echo chambers, as much as they used to rail against them.
I think that's why my kneejerk reaction is to distrust their reasoning, but I did get what I was looking for in another part of this thread:
If the CCP can monitor you indefinitely, and have enough man/ai power to pull it off, they could theoretically social engineer infrastructure attacks without actually putting themselves at almost any legal risk (blackmailing is always illegal, but the methods used to get the blackmail would be hidden in the tandc's)
Unfortunately, all I hear from republicans is tiktok=China, China=bad without any of these sorts of details, which is why I approached this with such skepticism initially
I literally can not imagine what life in China must be like. Especially for someone of about my socioeconomic class. I may have seen American Factory a while ago, but in case I'm thinking of the wrong thing, I'll check it out again. Thanks for the rec!
(Also, in case it's not clear, I wasn't saying the US was anywhere near as bad as or better than China in regards to anything, just that I couldn't tell if this specific rattling was just republican red scare bs or if it actually had substance to it. Turns out, there's some substance to it, they're just not articulating a position well on it, imo)
It's not about the propaganda they can push but the data they can harvest with full access to everything your phone can provide. It's the difference between simple algorithms and full on individuals machine learning models targeting you. Combine that with an actual malicious intent and you get some pretty interesting and terrifying possibilities inside information warfare and kinetic.
What are these interesting and terrifying possibilities inside information warfare and kinetic warfare?
That's specifically what I'm after. It sounds like boogyman fear right now, but it sounds like you have something more concrete. What is it that you have in mind, exactly?
They could use unmitigated microphone access to develop an exact profile on what would get you to spy for them and betray the country and to what extent. Location based models from minute gps data which can predict exactly where you are to maximize attacks on infrastructure. 3d models of the inside of every federal building and us military bases from direct camera access.
Combining models can create increasing impacts with automation and cyber capabilities.
An individual example would be automatic ai generation of images of your family being threatened sent to you while you are at work. All they are asking you to do is go and flush the toilet.
Everyone does that at the same time and overwhelms the sewage system creating a manufactured infrastructure crisis in Arlington VA around the Pentagon. This multiplied by a hundred issues all at once as they invade Taiwan.
This is the type of attack that's only possible with direct access to literally all the data that the little sensor node that is your phone can provide over time. It doesn't include the types of profiling that they could do with your political inclinations to magnify any discontent with the world around you at the most inconvenient time for the government. It also doesn't include the possibility that you might be a decision maker for government contracts someday or a politician influencing policy towards China.
Ever done anything wrong and still had your phone powered on that could possibly be used against you? Are you sure? What if they have enough image data to make a video that looks just like you doing something against your loved ones that they also have profiles on?
Beautiful, this is what I was looking for.
I think, still, that the best defense against this type of thing is education. Education on what nefarious actors can do with data types xy and z, and education on how to not get owned by a foreign actor.
I still think an app ban is principally un-American, but this is the imagination part that I couldn't come up with that at least gives what I'm still calling republican hysteria a veneer of legitimacy.
Thank you for that!
Agree. I want to ban TikTok('s algorithms) too, but on grounds of algorithm addiction and national security issues it causes. That also means Instagram Reels and YouTube Shorts.
I look at it as completely missing the root problem, which is companies have way too much power to harvest and hoard data. If there were strong data ownership and protection laws in the US TikTok would either follow those rules or be fined/banned for actual cause. Washington is just mad a company not in US jurisdiction is the one doing the harvesting for once.
I don't disagree with that which is why I'm currently in the "this is red-scare" camp. If Washington (more specifically, the NSA and friends) hadn't been buying our data to peruse via the lax privacy laws we currently have, maybe they'd have a leg to stand on with any of this...
I agree, and I always want to know what TikTok is taking that facebook, twitter, etc aren't also taking
The exact same shit, it's just what continent it's stored on.
Ask yourself if the American government had the ability to talk directly to the Russian populace with no interference from their government, what might they say/do/cause to happen.
That's what Tiktok is, and that's what a lot of the fear is about. It's know that all Chinese companies have heavy connections to the government, so if they wanted to do something they could.
Not even saying Tiktok is that bad, mostly just saying Americans, especially the government is a bunch of fucking hypocrites about this shit.
Honestly, keep it to "If you don't like it don't use it" and leave it at that. The idea of the government picking what social network people are allowed on seems foolish, and I imagine many people will side load the app (At least on Android) if it's officially banned.
Unfortunately I literally can't imagine anything convincing coming out of the US's mouth given that case. It's not like we can Manchurian candidate sleeper cells in Russia using our influence, and I'd argue China also has similar limitations.
The worst I can imagine is "us bad" with a lot of easily disprovable half truths that only stand for idiots who believe whatever tiktok gives them. And if the politicians who support this ban are arguing that most Americans are like that, then they'd better be pushing for better education or else they are also nefarious (because why else would they want people to be susceptible to propaganda, but not XYZ's propaganda?)
I guess maybe my issue now is that it almost seems that republicans are trying to do their own propaganda machine, but are incensed that China might be stealing morons who are, as another commenter put it, ripe for radicalization. But that doesn't seem right because I'd be surprised if they didn't also have a bunch of outreach shit through tiktok.... Idk, this is already delving into conspiracy theory territory so I'm gonna just stop myself here.
But all in all, I totally agree with your last paragraph, especially "if you don't like it, then don't use it".
They don't need to be particularly convincing points, their targets are teenagers. They just need to be at a frequency that their viewer accepts them to be the 'common' point of view.
Facebook is paying for it
Well I mean, that does make sense. I still believe tiktok [https://youtu.be/Ti8v4eL8oIE](really is a bit of spyware) (sorry for the longish YouTube video) but that could definitely be a contributing factor to this case
Here is an alternative Piped link(s): https://piped.video/Ti8v4eL8oIE
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source, check me out at GitHub.
google is also spyware.. so is facebook while we're at it and literally ANY OTHER APP YOU PUT ON YOUR PHONE. Ever notice how every single thing has an app? It's not to make it easy for you to buy stuff from them, it's so they can utilize your data to make them more money.
I might be a little paranoid here so feel free to lmk, but a few uses for the data gathered by a foreign government/keeping people addicted:
The most obvious: Propaganda to push people to distrust their government
The less reasonable but still possible: Time wasting, people spend less time trying new things due to the lack of instant gratification, decreasing productivity/capability of the users. We've seen China begin to address this domestically with new laws limiting usage, what the US would consider overreach (unless it effects the bottom line perhaps?)
The downright unreasonable: Profile building using accounts as a digital fingerprint to determine military capability, it's amazing what people will advertise about themselves online, TikTok occasionally tells people what illness (mental or physical) before even they are formally diagnosed. Imagine leveraging that information in a 'unethical' way, the possibilities are endless.
I think the paranoia is what I was looking for, so thank you for delivering!
For the most obvious: idk, I think people should generally have a healthy distrust of those in government positions. Maybe ideally not, but in reality, it's necessary to not be taken advantage of by any manner of power hungry people. If tiktok half truths inspire someone to start actually looking at what xyz government has done, then that's a win in my book. If they just eat the half truths as is straight from tiktok, that's when there's a problem, but that's what my "why don't they educate people on how to spot propaganda" is to address.
Less reasonable: I think people should be allowed to do what they want to do long as it doesn't infringe on the health and safety of another. I guess you can split hairs about it decreasing health due to people working out less or something like that, but I don't think that's a good enough reason for government action.
Unreasonable: this actually seems the most reasonable to me, believe it or not. Military people posting the wrong thing at the wrong time from even a personal account can and has had bad effects on security before. That's why I would support a ban of any spyware-like app on government devices and on military bases (this was originally only support for a ban on gov devices, but I think if we're thinking about security, banning it in places where leaks may cost lives makes sense)
As for the endless possibilities of leveraging mental illness knowledge of a user, I'm afraid I can't imagine what one could do. The only time I can imagine that would really matter is if China takes over the US and goes full genocide on the population. I think the world would go down in nuclear flames before that would happen though...
If the app was literally called "CCP Government Monitor and Sensor Node" would you say the same thing about people being free to use it how they please? At the very least you would recommend any phone with it installed be banned from any government location or strategic location and people who use it scrutinized. As it currently stands, people don't believe that's what it is because they like it.
If you accept what the government is trying to communicate about it, the lines around individual freedom and the freedom to endanger others becomes pretty clear. You have the freedoms to work with explosives but you have no right to take a bomb on a military base. It is the same with data models. Having worked in machine learning and defense, I'm inclined to believe it. I acknowledge that I'm biased here but take my opinion for what it's worth.
I would say malicious malware shouldn't be sold on the app store and that anyone who hosts it should suffer whatever fallout it comes with (not the end users, the apk providers). However, due to the US being The Way That It Is™, we don't actually have any recourse like that for providers of malware. As for spyware.... I guess it probably should be handled like malware too. Eh you got me lol
I've said a couple different places in this thread I support a ban of tiktok on government phones and in at least one other place I support a ban of it on military bases, but my main issue was that I couldn't figure out how it could be used for nefarious purposes outside of government phones or areas.
As for "you have the right to work with the data models, but not remove the data from US soil", that's a new one, I'll have to think about that some more. Good point though, I think.
They could just ban the manner of data collection that TikTok does, but that would affect all the US social media apps too.
I think it’s bad because of how addictive it is
I had it for two days and I spent over 36 hours on the app.
Im sure some people are less affected by it than I was, but from my perspective, it’s too dangerous to let live.
Also I like the idea of getting rid of dangerous things and I don’t believe in free speech absolutism; I think we take that idea too far
I can't disagree with an opinion like that coupled with an anecdote like that.
I disagree that it's the federal government who should be stepping in to limit screen time though.
In fact, tiktok is the only app I've seen that has a "why don't you go touch grass" timer, so in that regard, it's got less nefarious design patterns than, say, Facebook.
I don't think I understand what you mean by dangerous in this context, honestly. When I think danger, I think of bodily harm. What does your definition of dangerous entail when it comes to social media apps that physically can't cause harm? Is my understanding of danger too simplistic?
So that justifies the federal government stepping in to save you from yourself? Should we have a War on Algorithms next? War on drugs has been going swimmingly.
Yes I think we should
It’s not just me, there are tons of people who are susceptible to schemes like social media etc. it’s why we don’t let kids smoke and they shouldn’t vape nicotine either. It’s why we regulate gambling, and why we should regulate sugary drinks too.
We didn’t evolve for a world with instant satisfaction, and we can’t cope with it.
To be clear, we don't ban children from consuming these products. We ban the sale of nicotine products to children. By anyone. The federal government didn't come in and ban Marlboro.
Regulations creating rules of behavior that apply to all actors. Not just making a law saying people aren't allowed inside the Bellagio.
The difference is super important. Laws need to be applied equally.
This isn't about China having the data...it's about the US not being able to harvest the data.
I could care less if China knows about my kinks or what my favorite pizza is...but depending on how the wind blows over the next decade, I really do care if the US knows about my political leanings.
Hmm... I hadn't thought about it like that, that actually makes it make sense in a roundabout way. I'll keep that one in the back of my head for now...