this post was submitted on 21 Aug 2023
3149 points (98.3% liked)
Asklemmy
43945 readers
518 users here now
A loosely moderated place to ask open-ended questions
If your post meets the following criteria, it's welcome here!
- Open-ended question
- Not offensive: at this point, we do not have the bandwidth to moderate overtly political discussions. Assume best intent and be excellent to each other.
- Not regarding using or support for Lemmy: context, see the list of support communities and tools for finding communities below
- Not ad nauseam inducing: please make sure it is a question that would be new to most members
- An actual topic of discussion
Looking for support?
Looking for a community?
- Lemmyverse: community search
- sub.rehab: maps old subreddits to fediverse options, marks official as such
- !lemmy411@lemmy.ca: a community for finding communities
~Icon~ ~by~ ~@Double_A@discuss.tchncs.de~
founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
IMO acting out of loyalty is never good. That is a backwards application of the concept intended to make you to act against your own interests.
Some people like to flip the idea of loyalty around from a description of behavior to a reason for behavior as a method of manipulating other people.
Like, if people see me consistently supporting my friends even when that is difficult they might think I'm 'loyal', but that's backwards. I'm not supporting them because I am loyal, I support them because I like them and want them to succeed (and hopefully they'll support me too). If someone wants loyalty from me, that's an immediate red flag that tells me they either don't understand why I do things, or they don't care and just want me to do whatever they want.
I'm not sure that I completely understand your point, but I totally agree that loyalty is earned and not automatic. And it can be used against you to coerce acting against your own best interests. I keep running into this with my employer, despite mountains of evidence over the years.
I'm a slow learner.
For me, it's not even that. Loyalty is not owed, nor is it earned. It is nothing more than a description of behavior.
Think of it this way: I always do my grocery shopping at Target instead of Walmart, even if I see that something is slightly cheaper at Walmart I'll still most likely go to Target for it. Some might see that and say, "Look, he has loyalty to Target", assuming that I shop at Target because I am loyal to that brand. But that's backwards. Really it is that I can be described as 'loyal' because I consistently go to that brand. 'Loyalty' is a description of the behavior, not the cause of the behavior.
Only if you have bought into the coercive bullshit that 'loyalty' is itself a reason to do something. Employee or customer loyalty is nothing more than an observation that people consistently support the company. That loyal behavior is seen because those people consistently have reasons to support the company. If you observe that people are loyally supporting your company, that is because they have reasons to do so (for example, you might be paying them to show up and do shit. Or maybe they think the shit they are doing is important or fun).
People who want something from you for less than it is worth will try to convince you that loyalty is something you owe them or that they have earned from you because if you believe the lie that loyalty is a reason for action that makes it easier to get you to give them something for free.
We’re going to have to disagree about allegiance being a behavioral motivator since means a strong feeling of support. That seems impossible to express in any way except motivated action.
On this we totally agree. It’s bullshit.
No, I agree that allegiance is a behavioral motivator, but I think it is distinct from loyalty and that people tend to conflate the concepts (similar to how people sometimes conflate or confuse infer/imply and borrow/lend).
Loyalty, a behavior, can be observed; allegiance, a commitment (maybe supported by emotion, maybe not), cannot.
Allegiance and loyalty are synonyms. Both are nouns. They are defined in terms of each other:
loyalty
Word forms: plural loyalties
uncountable noun
Loyalty is the quality of staying firm in your friendship or support for someone or something.
I have sworn an oath of loyalty to the monarchy. [+ to]
This is seen as a reward for the army's loyalty during a barracks revolt earlier this month.
Synonyms: faithfulness, commitment, devotion, allegiance
allegiance
Word forms: plural allegiances
variable noun
Your allegiance is your support for and loyalty to a particular group, person, or belief.
My allegiance to Kendall and his company ran deep. [+ to]
...a community driven by strong ties and allegiances.
Synonyms: loyalty, duty, obligation, devotion