this post was submitted on 11 Jun 2025
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THE POLICE PROBLEM

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    The police problem is that police are policed by the police. Cops are accountable only to other cops, which is no accountability at all.

    99.9999% of police brutality, corruption, and misconduct is never investigated, never punished, never makes the news, so it's not on this page.

    When cops are caught breaking the law, they're investigated by other cops. Details are kept quiet, the officers' names are withheld from public knowledge, and what info is eventually released is only what police choose to release — often nothing at all.

    When police are fired — which is all too rare — they leave with 'law enforcement experience' and can easily find work in another police department nearby. It's called "Wandering Cops."

    When police testify under oath, they lie so frequently that cops themselves have a joking term for it: "testilying." Yet it's almost unheard of for police to be punished or prosecuted for perjury.

    Cops can and do get away with lawlessness, because cops protect other cops. If they don't, they aren't cops for long.

    The legal doctrine of "qualified immunity" renders police officers invulnerable to lawsuits for almost anything they do. In practice, getting past 'qualified immunity' is so unlikely, it makes headlines when it happens.

    All this is a path to a police state.

    In a free society, police must always be under serious and skeptical public oversight, with non-cops and non-cronies in charge, issuing genuine punishment when warranted.

    Police who break the law must be prosecuted like anyone else, promptly fired if guilty, and barred from ever working in law-enforcement again.

    That's the solution.

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Our definition of ‘cops’ is broad, and includes prison guards, probation officers, shitty DAs and judges, etc — anyone who has the authority to fuck over people’s lives, with minimal or no oversight.

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RULES

Real-life decorum is expected. Please don't say things only a child or a jackass would say in person.

If you're here to support the police, you're trolling. Please exercise your right to remain silent.

Saying ~~cops~~ ANYONE should be killed lowers the IQ in any conversation. They're about killing people; we're not.

Please don't dox or post calls for harassment, vigilantism, tar & feather attacks, etc.

Please also abide by the instance rules.

It you've been banned but don't know why, check the moderator's log. If you feel you didn't deserve it, hey, I'm new at this and maybe you're right. Send a cordial PM, for a second chance.

♦ ♦ ♦

ALLIES

!abolition@slrpnk.net

!acab@lemmygrad.ml

r/ACAB

r/BadCopNoDonut/

Randy Balko

The Civil Rights Lawyer

The Honest Courtesan

Identity Project

MirandaWarning.org

♦ ♦ ♦

INFO

A demonstrator's guide to understanding riot munitions

Adultification

Cops aren't supposed to be smart

Don't talk to the police.

Killings by law enforcement in Canada

Killings by law enforcement in the United Kingdom

Killings by law enforcement in the United States

Know your rights: Filming the police

Three words. 70 cases. The tragic history of 'I can’t breathe' (as of 2020)

Police aren't primarily about helping you or solving crimes.

Police lie under oath, a lot

Police spin: An object lesson in Copspeak

Police unions and arbitrators keep abusive cops on the street

Shielded from Justice: Police Brutality and Accountability in the United States

So you wanna be a cop?

When the police knock on your door

♦ ♦ ♦

ORGANIZATIONS

Black Lives Matter

Campaign Zero

Innocence Project

The Marshall Project

Movement Law Lab

NAACP

National Police Accountability Project

Say Their Names

Vera: Ending Mass Incarceration

 

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[–] Crikeste@lemm.ee 11 points 2 days ago (4 children)

Only if you want to spend the rest of your life dead or in prison.

It’s a lovely thought, but ICE has the entire weight of the government behind them.

[–] Witchfire@lemmy.world 12 points 2 days ago (1 children)

If ICE comes for you, there's an over 50% chance that's gonna happen either way. May as well even the field a bit.

[–] phx@lemmy.ca 4 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Also wondering what happens if there next goon squad is all ventilated.

"Oh yeah, I saw an attempted kidnapping and then somebody shot the kidnappers. Victim and the shooter ran away. Guy was wearing a hoodie. No idea who they were"

[–] ViceroTempus@lemmy.world 1 points 2 days ago

Same rules as when you see a young mom/dad steal diapers and baby food.

No, you didn't.

[–] dQw4w9WgXcQ@lemm.ee 13 points 2 days ago (4 children)

I was under the impression that US rules about trespassing left the owner with a lot of rights, even to use weapons to protect their property. Doesn't this apply when ICE raids homes without warnings or warrants?

[–] in4apenny@lemmy.dbzer0.com 10 points 2 days ago

Apparently not, either die trying or live in servitude as all hopes of resistance gets further stripped away. A lot of people in here seem to choose the latter, it's how the bad guys win every time.

[–] InputZero@lemmy.world 6 points 2 days ago (3 children)

Yes but no, you have the right to defend your home but not against an officer of the law carrying out a warrant. So if a plain clothes officer, with a drawn fire arm, carrys out a no knock warrent, and the homeowner tries to shoot them. That's attempting to kill an officer of the law. It doesn't matter if the appearance of a plain clothes no knock warrent is identical to a home invasion, and the homeowner defends themselves, the ICE agents are just going to kill the homeowner and the ICE agents will have protection of the law.

[–] Zaktor@sopuli.xyz 16 points 2 days ago (1 children)

This isn't really true. People have gotten off on shooting at officers because they didn't know they were officers. It's a huge risk, because they'll also likely just shoot you, but the law doesn't actually require people to have telepathic knowledge of the association of a presumed home invader.

It's still very much a matter of privilege to afford a good enough attorney to get you off. Black people tend to get shot while sleeping and convicted postmortem.

[–] Roughknite@lemm.ee 10 points 2 days ago (1 children)

You are forgetting they are not using warrants. A court would find you not guilty if they have no warrant and you defend yourself according to your laws.

[–] ViceroTempus@lemmy.world 3 points 2 days ago

I certainly wouldn't find anybody shooting an ICE "agent" as guilty if I was on the Jury, regardless of what a judge might say. Jury Nullification is an important right that every U.S. Citizen should know about, but never talk about inside a court house.

I refuse to put away people defending their community from a gestapo like force, regardless of the events surrounding said gestapo's death.

[–] phx@lemmy.ca 6 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Honest question: what warrant are they operating under? These guys won't even produce ID when asked so I doubt they've got paperwork

[–] InputZero@lemmy.world 1 points 2 days ago

If you're asking about ICE officers, they've been given the authority to sign their own warrants.

[–] Crikeste@lemm.ee 4 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Sadly, no. I mean, MAYBE, with the right administration you could get away with killing an officer if they are breaking the law and endangering your life. But it’s really up to the courts, and courts are usually not okay with killing their officers. Even when it is justified or self defense. The state will not go down without a fight.

I don’t think there is any realistic resistance without an organized army of civilian soldiers. The 2nd amendment and ‘militias’ and all that.

[–] Crankenstein@lemmy.world 5 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

Yea. The key part of the 2nd amendment is the "organized militia" part that has conveniently been left out of main stream discussions.

Civilians need to start organizing or we are all royally fucked.

[–] ViceroTempus@lemmy.world 2 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Actually an organized militia isn't needed. As the bill of rights is just a small enumeration of our natural rights, and does not include all of them. They are solely there to remind the populace what our rights are even in the face of a tyrannical government. Funny enough your arguments now are why James Madison didn't want a bill of rights included as he felt that Natural Rights were too numerous to list, and people would think themselves limited to only the enumerated powers or confuse them into thinking the government granted them those rights. When, in fact, those rights are inherent to our very being.

Some Relevant reading:

" When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.

But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. "

-The Declaration of Independence.

So important they wrote it down, and signed it. (Broke it up for readability)

[–] Crankenstein@lemmy.world 1 points 1 day ago

Yes, I'm aware of this and in fact I agree with Madison's position. I just wasn't trying to get into the nitty gritty behind having a top-down system of authority dictating what is or isn't "rights" and its flaws.

I still stand behind my position that having well-organized, volunteer community militias is a necessity that every community should have and be engaged with to some extent. So long as the state exists, people need to be ready to defend themselves against it.

Also, personally, I oppose the existence of the state as a concept and believe it should be abolished, with its roles being replaced by bottom-up structures of authority from within communities, but that's also getting into much deeper politics.

[–] conicalscientist@lemmy.world 1 points 2 days ago

Americans love to preach about their rules. Especially about how uniquely exceptional the rules are. Turns out it's all bullshit. They're just another tinpot dictatorship ruling over a barbaric shithole.

[–] in4apenny@lemmy.dbzer0.com 6 points 2 days ago (2 children)

I guess ICE wins then. Yayyyyy.

[–] walktheplank@lemmy.world 3 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

Sure are and will continue to do so because of ignorance and inaction.

[–] Crikeste@lemm.ee -3 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (3 children)

Would you consider ICE losing being -1 officers and you in prison or dead? Like I said, I don’t disagree with the sentiment, I’m just being realistic.

Let me put it this way: If people start killing ICE officers, they will be rolling up with every resource they have to kidnap whoever they are looking for.

Is that a better situation?

Killing officers is not the end, it’s the beginning.

[–] Crankenstein@lemmy.world 9 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

Then the people need to organize and be ready to fight back and defend themselves against state oppression. We know it is going to happen if we stand up for ourselves, so we might as well be prepared instead of letting it deter us from doing what is right.

You act like they aren't already rolling in and kidnapping whoever they desire. So the threat of them doing it "harder" is moot.

[–] Crikeste@lemm.ee 1 points 2 days ago (1 children)

I mentioned people organizing and fighting back in my earlier comment. I absolutely support it. But the main point is the organization.

And I really don’t think it’s unreasonable to suggest that, while sure they are doing whatever the fuck they want now, they have far more gross tools they can use. I think what we’re seeing right now is Trump trying to normalize the military protecting ICE.

[–] Crankenstein@lemmy.world 1 points 2 days ago

Yea, no shit. Still doesn't change anything about my point.

[–] Zaktor@sopuli.xyz 7 points 2 days ago

The more officers they have to send to a kidnapping, the fewer kidnappings they can perform.

[–] in4apenny@lemmy.dbzer0.com 6 points 2 days ago

I'm more inclined to think that unidentified ICE officers kidnapping random folk without any warrant or due process is the beginning, citizens defending themselves from the gestapo is the only appropriate response. To be realistic, they're already rolling up with every resource they have to kidnap whoever they are looking for, it's already reached that point. Who do you think would back down first? Who do you think should back down first?

[–] bitjunkie@lemmy.world 2 points 2 days ago (2 children)

spend the rest of your life dead

I feel like this wording could have been better

[–] Psythik@lemm.ee 5 points 2 days ago

No, the wording is perfect. Similar to when you wake up dead.

[–] Crikeste@lemm.ee 5 points 2 days ago

It’s just a stupid joke, like waking up dead.