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Return-to-office orders look like a way for elite, work-obsessed CEOs to grab power back from employees
(www.businessinsider.com)
this post was submitted on 28 Aug 2023
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Work Reform
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A place to discuss positive changes that can make work more equitable, and to vent about current practices. We are NOT against work; we just want the fruits of our labor to be recognized better.
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I for one am sick of WFH. There I friggin said it. It's isolating, lonely, and never stops, because there's no divide between work and life. I'm sick of working 12 hours and barely even leaving the house. I miss learning from colleagues who are discussing things I'm not super familiar with, looking over their shoulder to learn more. I miss forming real actual bonds with colleagues and becoming friends with them once we've quit whatever shithole company we met at.
I know this is the minority opinion but I'm really sick of EVERY SINGLE DISCUSSION being about how management is just trying to control staff. Some of us actually want to be in an office and genuinely dislike WFH. I can make a genuine argument for more efficiency in office too, even including commute. Etc. This is all debatable, it's not just about commercial real estate values.
WFH crowd isn't trying to make you WFH
Work from office people are trying to force WFH people in
You're welcome to your opinion and no one is hating you for it, just leave us introverts alone
I'm an introvert too. Takes energy to socialize and I recharge sitting on my ass reading. Working on technical shit is easier when I can walk over to someone's desk and say "what is this, what happened here, did you consider such and such" etc. Trying to do that when everyone is remote is..suboptimal..
Then return to the office.
..that's what this thread is about and look at the response. Bunch of cave trolls here who are terrified of phone calls let alone going outside in public in the daytime and actually interacting with colleagues.
Have you considered that maybe there's a reason your coworkers don't want to talk to you?
https://lemmy.world/post/4139143
It's a generational thing. My colleagues in other firms say the same thing. I like gen Z overall but my god they suck at communicating. Not surprising for a generation raised on texting and TikTok etc. They're educated and capable but that's not worth much if you can't successfully share and explain your work.
Turns out communication is actually really important. I bet if Leibniz were around today he'd be in this thread telling me to go fuck myself too though.
This is about orders to return to the office, not options to do so.
You know something that really bugs me? People who demand full remote, but absolutely suck at communicating. If you're gonna be remote you need to go out of your way to be accessible and communicative. I have found it there is a ton of overlap between people demanding full remote and people who refuse to answer the damn phone when I call. Then they text me back two seconds later, unironically, not realizing they're demonstrating their shit communication skills. I've stopped arguing with staff years ago about turning on their webcam.
It just really pisses me off and would really help the WFH argument if they improved communication skills and attitude.
This something for a manager to actually deal with, not a company-wide RTO mandate. Remediation may end up taking the form of that employee coming into the office anyways, but many people do prefer and work better WFH, and should be allowed to do so.
How do you "actually deal with" staff who are uncommunicative, terrified of phones, shamelessly avoid calls and text you back, demonstrate their inability to function full remote*, push back against RTO with the same intense vitriol you see in this thread, and oh by the way it's like an entire generation of staff and not just a few folks here and there.
*Even if your work is super technical like mine is, half the job is making sure everyone understands what you did. You can't just communicate in grunts and sign language then retreat to your cave.
You honestly can't think of how an employer can actually deal with an employee who's failing to do their job effectively?
I want to hear your thoughts. The question again specifically was
There's some really intense sheer rage in this thread. What am I supposed to do with that? And remember that you are me right now dealing with these people who are presumably you. I'm listening.
If you work from home, no one is forcing you to do that. I leave the house every day to buy groceries or play basketball.
Oh, you're one of those annoying people wasting everyone's time? No wonder it takes you 12 hours to do your own work.
Have you heard of this amazing invention called a chat room? I think you are upset you can't bug people all day and call it "networking". If people want to talk to you, they'll do it after work too.
See it's vitriol like this in every thread that is just so immeasurably irritating. I'm chiming in, in good faith, with my personal opinion on the matter, and you shit all over me like we're not all just trying to get our work done. I find it more efficient working together in an office, leave me the fuck alone will you?
You just said that you like learning from other opinions. My opinion is that you should stop bugging people and leave people alone.
If this comment is unwanted, imagine how everyone else feels when you butt in with whatever questions you have.
You said hybrid doesn't work if other people aren't there at the same time. You not only want to be in the office, you admit that you want to force other people to be there too. Just put your questions in an email like a normal person.
I've reconsidered my position and agree you and your toxic attitude should stay home.
At least you're telling me online, not in person where it's harder to ignore.
I bet you don't pick up the phone either. Maybe if I ask point blank "answer the fucking phone" instead of pinging me right after I call when I KNOW you're right there. Forget about a video call. Poor verbal communication skills, difficulty expressing yourself without negative emotions, probably autistic to some degree, toxic personality, not liked by colleagues or staff. I know your type and your work better be outstanding because your attitude sucks.
Yeah, it's my attitude that's the problem...
🙄🙄🙄
That's you saying you hate learning and teaching. That's when you lost the high ground here. Your attitude is toxic and I wouldn't want you anywhere near me or my team. So yeah PLEASE stay at home and just fuck off.
While I acknowledge WFH isn't for everyone. It does take time to create healthy habits around WFH.
For example you mentioned no divide. Imo it is critical to create a "work space" within your home and to isolate work there if possible.
Same with "barely leaving the house". You have to manually create a habit to get natural sunlight. Be it a walk during your lunch break or before/after work.
As for "forming bonds" with colleagues. I built all of.my relationships entirely remote. It depends on the person but the collaboration and social aspect of remote work is capable of emulating ITO life.
That said, I do agree that "hybrid" is the way to go as it's a great "one size fits all". The issue is leadership using a hybrid model that mandates everyone comes into the office. Some people, including myself, just work better and are much happier working from home.
I completely agree with "anchor days" where everyone comes in but that it shouldn't be around work. Instead it should be collaboration and team social activities.
The thing about hybrid is that if I'm at home while you're in the office, or vice versa, it's pointless. Anchor days are good like you said where everyone is in the office or everyone is at home. I disagree that those are good for team social activities. Personally I've never really gotten anything out of those forced fun type activities (falling exercises being the textbook cliche example). My field is super technical and complicated with a ton of back and forth. I can't just shove something in my staff's face and say here do this. The best training I've ever given and received is simply OJT working together on technical shit, sitting next to each other, looking stuff up, problem solving, making decisions, that sort of thing.
Most of my collaboration is through pair programming so I can relate to what you find valuable.
Generally our team activities are after hours or a free lunch, and while not mandatory, it does have good turnout.
I don't understand your pointlessness argument though. I hear mention of how we're in the office and in video call for meetings anyway. However I remember that being the case even before COVID. Has your experience been different than this?
Most of our meetings were in meeting rooms already equipped with video conferencing gear. We didn't always have another office on call in meetings but we often did and it didn't make a difference whether they were there or not.
Granted, I am in software, so I can't answer for other types of positions. Most of these articles seem to be about software companies (or fintech).
When we had the initial "office is optional" declaration we had a good portion of people who were still coming in so the in person collaboration aspect was still available. At this phase those more comfortable remained home and it was as if they were just another employee from a satellite office.
I meant there's no point going to an office if nobody I'm working with is going to be there. I might as well just stay home too.
Just to be clear I'm not sitting here yearning for face to face contact because my colleagues are so gorgeous or to socialize with them. These aren't "hi how are you" meetings. My field is super technical with tons of back and forth questions, problem solving, and drafts, between me, my staff, other colleagues, clients, whoever. And I'm right smack in the middle conducting the orchestra trying to keep it all together. The in-person time I'm talking about is going over minute technical details with staff/partners/colleagues/whoever to review or because they have questions, ask them 'prove this, explain that, make a note that this thing over here has been fucked for twenty years,' etc, or just general problem solving and decision making etc.
These things are infinitely easier when you're not herding cats trying to get people on a zoom call, it's fast paced and we're all juggling thirty things on fire at once, sometimes you gotta catch someone for twenty seconds while they're taking a piss, that's just how it is.
So when everyone is in different offices, different time zones, some in office, some at home, it just increases bottlenecks and decreases efficiency. That's been my experience over the last few years, YMMV
Longer hours I feel are better suited to an office, at least that way it's not so draining with others around you