this post was submitted on 28 Aug 2023
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Pupils will be banned from wearing abayas, loose-fitting full-length robes worn by some Muslim women, in France's state-run schools, the education minister has said.

The rule will be applied as soon as the new school year starts on 4 September.

France has a strict ban on religious signs in state schools and government buildings, arguing that they violate secular laws.

Wearing a headscarf has been banned since 2004 in state-run schools.

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[–] jerd@lemmy.world 35 points 1 year ago (4 children)

Religious freedom is a human right. Self determination is a human right. As long as whatever you do does not cause a negative impact on other people (see the second right) or society at large, then gtfo.

[–] gnygnygny@lemm.ee 33 points 1 year ago (1 children)

There is no "second right" in France. The law is simple : Don't wear visible religious sign at school. There are private religious schools if you disagree with the public system.

[–] bric@lemm.ee 19 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Is it so insane to think there could be a school with both religious and areligious people at the same time? A secular school that doesn't support a religion, but allows students to express themselves how they choose? When did that become a radical idea?

[–] gnygnygny@lemm.ee 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It's not insane, but this separation has been done in 1905. In France the state is separated from the church (and by extension the religious). It's not radical it takes roots in the principle of equality.

[–] bric@lemm.ee 10 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Separation of church and state is always a good thing, I'm not arguing against that, but this feels like a whole different level. If anything, this is the state taking an active role in changing the rules of the church. That's not separation, that's state sponsored atheism

[–] gnygnygny@lemm.ee 1 points 1 year ago

The public schools are the one from the state. Those one are separate from the church. But everybody can go tothe private schools those can be religious or not.

That's secularism, not atheism.

[–] smollittlefrog@lemdro.id -2 points 1 year ago

Students should express themselves how they choose.

That's why you protect them from indoctination/religion forcing a certain outfit upon them.

[–] Estebiu@lemmy.dbzer0.com 15 points 1 year ago (1 children)

"Self determination is a human right" There's nothing I agree more on. Unfortunately some muslim communities do not agree, and the men and the women aren't on the same level. Many women are forced to port the abaya and other vests that cover their figure in entirety, and I don't think they should be forced to if they don't want to. 85% of the muslim women in France that I know do not want to port it, but they're obligated by their family. Banning it entirely is not the perfect solution, but it's a step in the the direction of eradicating religions in France. The time of Christianity and Islam is way beyond us.

[–] Lols@lemm.ee 15 points 1 year ago (1 children)

i like the slow stumble from "self-determination is a human right" to "eradicating religions in france"

"85% of the muslim women in france ᵗʰᵃᵗ ᶦ ᵏⁿᵒʷ" really adds to the experience too, thank you

[–] Estebiu@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Yeah, sorry, I didn't exprime myself correctly here. Let me rephrase it:

If you want to be christian or muslim, please be, I don't have nothing against you. But I'm not ok with parents forcing their religion down the throats of their kids.

And, let's face it, religion it's at an all time low, especially with newer generations like mine, and I don't like how boomers force their kids to "go to church", "dress in a certain manner", ecc, when the kids don't even believe.

[–] SCB@lemmy.world -3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Parents get to raise their kids. For instance, your parents raised you to believe that stripping someone's rights protects their rights.

They were wrong to do that, but they get to do that

[–] Estebiu@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

My parents are Catholics, and it's also for that that I've begun disliking religions altogether.

Is banning dresses at a state-level a thing that shouldn't ever happen? Yes.

Do I agree with the banning of a robe that strips women of their identity? Still yes.

We humans are contradictory existencies

[–] SCB@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago

Lol I like to joke that nothing turns you against Catholicism (or religion in general) like growing up Catholic.

I'm a hardliner on freedom and (safe) expression, full stop, but I def get where you're coming from.

[–] Aux@lemmy.world -1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You can practice your religion inside your home. Once you're out in public you should respect others and hide your religion away. This is the way!

[–] Darthjaffacake@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Not having to hide who you are is a human right, I get where stuff like this is coming from but if there was a rule to hide all symbols of sexualities to protect people it'd become pretty obvious that it's homophobic. Being able to exist in public shouldn't require making changes to yourself.

[–] Aux@lemmy.world -2 points 1 year ago

You can only exist in public as part of such public.

[–] CookieJarObserver@sh.itjust.works -2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Nope. Religion should be banned.

Also the girls are likely forced to do that so you are Dubble wrong.

[–] Flyswat@lemmy.dbzer0.com 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

I don't deny that there are occurrences where some girls are forced. What about the 95% others?

You can't put forth a law punishing the majority for a "likely". What happened to the "Liberté Egalité Fraternité" which this liberticide law is obviously trampling?

The population has been fed the islamophobic narrative long enough to have such laws pass without anybody thinking about how ridiculous they are (replace hijab/abaya with dreadlocks or other piece of clothing... What do other people care?). The divide is so deep and constantly maintained by the politicians who, since they find no real answers the actual problems plaguing the day to day life of citizen, prefer to turn them against each other: divide to better rule.

[–] SCB@lemmy.world 7 points 1 year ago (2 children)

France has never once, in the history of the country, ever given half a shit about doing the right thing or not disenfranchising people.

They have a very cool history but France is a shit show top to bottom.

Basically all of their governing tenets only exist to prevent the French from just living in a state of constant revolution.

[–] Guntrigger@feddit.ch 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It's funny that the French are romanticised as a revolutionary people, always ready to stand up to the man and fight for the people.

They've probably just been shit on by their own government more that most other nations, so they've reached that tipping point of revolution more than anyone else.

[–] SCB@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

The French are the ones doing a lot of the shitting on themselves. The Reign of Terror wasn't a government initiative.

[–] CookieJarObserver@sh.itjust.works -1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Tbh true, yet still not everything in france is bad

[–] SCB@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Never said it was and never would. Every country has its crazy shit. France's is just very visible.

As an American, I can relate to that.

[–] Project_Straylight@lemmy.villa-straylight.social 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Having gone to school with many muslims, sadly, it's more like 4/5. As in, 4 out of 5 of those girls are forced to wear their religious garment. If they don't it's seen as shameful for their entire family.

Some are beaten but most of them are given a free choice: they can choose not to wear it and leave their family (and most friends). Or they can choose to abide and show how much they love god. Not many 10 year old girls choose to leave their family though.

And the other 1/5th are the full on religious fruitcakes.

[–] Flyswat@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I have anecdotal experiences too: my sister is Muslim and was wearing hijab in France. Of her own will. My parents argued repeatedly AGAINST it because of all the problems she'd have (and she did have) in that glorious free country. But she wouldn't budge, because she didn't want a human to dictate to her what she could wear.

In many places such dress code is more cultural than religious. From the religious point of view, yes women are to wear it however one cannot FORCE them to. In some places they do, but the scripture does not allow this.

In secular countries people do not know the difference or don't even bother because it mostly affects non whites. Instead of tracking the cases where there is abuse and dealing with them accordingly, they just ban it wholesale across the board. It's like banning knives because some people use them violently.