this post was submitted on 17 Sep 2023
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That "coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2), the virus that causes COVID-19, can have lasting effects on nearly every organ and organ system of the body weeks, months, and potentially years after infection (11,12). Documented serious post-COVID-19 conditions include cardiovascular, pulmonary, neurological, renal, endocrine, hematological, and gastrointestinal complications (8), as well as death.".
This is true regardless of symptom severity or health status, every person is at risk. I think most people really aren't aware of this, they absorbed the narrative that it's gone, mild, only kills/harms the vulnerable, etc. This isn't really their fault, there are a lot of factors that have led people to that belief, but people should know their lives and livelihoods are much more at risk now than 4 years ago.
And that this isn't inevitable, there are simple methods of disrupting transmission and protecting yourself and others. COVID-19 is here to stay (unless we do something about that) and it has impacts on every person infected and on society at large. That shouldn't mean folks accept illness and worse quality of life. We adapt and adopt precautions in our life to reduce long-term health impacts, like we've done before with many other illnesses that plague humanity.
And the possible risks are compounded with each infection. People are acting like covid just isn't a problem anymore, like it's gone away. Meanwhile, roughly 100 Americans are dying of covid every day - and we're not even in a surge at the moment.
I'm too lazy to verify your numbers, but realistically, covid nowadays is simply just another life risk. Yes, people are still dying and that's bad, but most of them are just in the age where people tend to die of such infections.
I'd guess, there are about 4 million deaths a year in a country the size of the US. So having something on the order of 100k per year due to covid isn't that concerning, if the lifespan isn't affected that much.
We have vaccinations against covid. If you're properly vaccinated, you'll probably be fine and younger children will grow up in a world where you just get covid once in a while and get better immunity than we old folks could ever have.
Get this though: many children still do end up hospitalized. The majority of them have no underlying comorbidities or conditions. Their only reason for ending up in hospital is luck of the draw. That was presented at the CDC meeting where the recent booster was approved. It's not just the elderly or infirm who end up in the hospital and die from it. It's still killing, hospitalizing, and making seriously ill way more people than flu.
Yes, but as I said: this is just life now.
You're getting all raved up about covid, but in reality, this is just a tiny bit more risk. Yes, more risk is bad, but what is the alternative? Continuous shutdown forever?
You have to accept, that there are just some risks that we have to accept. If you're going out on the street, there's a chance you'll be run over, do you stay indoors all the time because of that?
No, we don't have to just accept continuous illness and death. Why do you think that it's necessary for people to suffer when there are simple solutions? There are steps between nothing and total shutdown, read above for some of them.
Covid isn't like people going in the street risking getting hit. Covid is a communicable illness spread by others, not a personal choice someone makes. People can't just choose to never be exposed even if they wanted, we have to interact with others. Further, people can and do avoid being run over in the street by walking on sidewalks and crosswalks, riding in vehicles with protections, with lots of traffic safety rules in place to minimize accidents. Right now our covid elimination strategies are similar to that of traffic safety in the early days of automobiles when there were no safety regulations. Right now we have a bunch of people driving wildly with at best ineffective vaccines, we need a lot more than that if we want to stop repeatedly trying to dodge covid crashes and have any sense of stability in actually living with covid.
There are no simple solutions. Vaccines solve 95% of the problem, but not 100%, and the remaining 5% are what you're complaining about.
All other solutions can only be temporary, since they require massive changes in pretty much any aspect of our lives, and they will cause massive problems in other areas.
You're basically proposing suicide for fear of death.
Actually I'm proposing life is valuable and we should protect it.
The vaccines don't solve the problem and the solutions do not require massive change, but they do require people reflect on what's important and adjust their behavior accordingly. I think that living a good life is important so I believe we should do things to better those odds, like reducing the amount of damage covid does to the body. Choosing continuous illness and your worse years coming much sooner sounds closer to suicide to me. Masking, improved ventilation and filtration, paid sick leave, and other simple steps are not absurd and shouldn't be temporary. We know easy ways to reduce massive suffering, it's ridiculous to me that people oppose it.
You still don't seem to understand the opportunity costs you're overlooking here.
Reducing people's freedom is justifiable to a certain extent, if it saves lives. But that's a trade off. Currently, the death and illnesses due to covid are very rare, so overall the "sickness load" is rather low. Changing behavior in a way that reduces that load significantly will necessarily cause reduced freedom for huge amounts of people. You're taking away more than you're saving.
That's what I meant by suicide for fear of death. Sacrificing very much to protect very little.
These misunderstandings about covid are what I mentioned in my original post. Covid is currently killing fewer people than it did the first few years, it already burned through the most vulnerable and you can only die once. But illness is not rare at all. Aside from the rampant acute illness, Nearly One in Five American Adults Who Have Had COVID-19 Still Have βLong COVIDβ and about 10% of infections results in long covid. We don't even know what the long term effects are, we do know it's already having impacts on people's health and on healthcare services, and that there is no lasting immunity. People used to suffer and die from preventable diseases, a lot. We didn't say oh well, sucks to suck. We learned and adapted, that's what we need to do that again.
You mentioned costs and freedom, what does freedom mean to you in this context?
They don't want to be told they have to wear a mask or that people should stay home from work when they're sick. Anything that would impinge on the rights of businesses to make money is against my freedoms.
It's the climate crisis but for health. Some people just can't bear to give up their treats in order to save lives.
You're comparing apples and oranges here.
Most of the current long term cases are in people without vaccination - either because they refused, or simply because it wasn't available at the time.
There is a lasting immunity, or better, the residual immunity lasts long enough until the next wave/winter hits. Especially the amount of severe or long covid cases drops drastically.
Freedom can mean pretty much anything that could be affected by "measures". Lockdowns might be the most obvious case, but even mask mandates are limiting how and where you can go, they also put financial (and environmental) strains on people. Stay at home orders for infected people are also pretty drastic reductions of freedom.
No, I'm continuing the original statements I made. That covid is causing long term health issues, and while vaccines can lower the odds of long term impacts they do not prevent them. The only way to prevent long covid is to not get Covid.
I agree masks are cost prohibitive, I support free distribution of n95s or elastomeric and fit testing in communities, but how are they limiting where folks go? When we had widescale masking I was able to go the places I wanted, safely. I disagree that asking people to stay home while sick is a drastic reduction in freedom, I actually believe people's desire to go in public and spread disease that can cause serious problems for them is a much great reduction in overall freedom. Another drastic reduction in freedom is what people who don't want to get covid have been experiencing, which is being cut off from all public life. One-way masking is not enough, it's like wearing a helmet in a monster truck rally, helpful but insufficient. Even hospitals are not places one can go without getting ill.
I can't convince you to care about yours and others wellbeing. I believe that freedom is something we share and create for each other, not simply being able to move about and do whatever I want as an individual. I truly hope you educate yourself on the risks of covid and take proper care to avoid it. Peace.
For workplaces and businesses, improved air filtration would be a huge big deal for reducing respiratory illnesses. It also helps with allergens and with stinky coworkers. Smarter workplaces are already doing this; but there's a long tail of people working in spaces with grossly inadequate ventilation to begin with. Air filtration is an occupational safety issue.
Anecdotal evidence but I have collected the 4 big strains and albeit vaccinated correctly it was quite the hassle each time (a week in bed or more), and yeah short of breath and more after each (once for around 3-4 months with brain fog, with the addition that I didn't really feel spicy food at all spicy during that period, just very good).
It's definitely not a joke and I hope I won't catch it again.
To add to this, SiDock is an awesome project working on an open-source, patent-free, self-stable antiviral for covid using the computers of volunteers. Anybody can volunteer their spare computational power with a few clicks. I have been crunching it since 2020 and find it very fun.