this post was submitted on 10 Nov 2023
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[–] kaotic@lemmy.world 33 points 1 year ago (1 children)

EVs also greatly reduce brake dust, as most use regenerative braking under normal circumstances, leaving traditional braking for hard (emergency) braking.

[–] SkepticalButOpenMinded@lemmy.ca 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (36 children)

But massively increase tire dust, which is a much bigger source of air and water pollution than brake dust.

edit: There are literally dozens of articles about how EVs will produce more tire particulate pollution than ICEs.

Here is an article in the Guardian about how much worse tyre particulate pollution is than tailpipe exhaust.

This Atlantic article discusses tire particulate increase from EVs:

New EV models tend to be heavier and quicker—generating more particulates and deepening the danger. In other words, EVs have a tire-pollution problem, and one that is poised to get worse as America begins to adopt electric cars en masse.

According to this Forbes article:

Tires were already a problem, but when we switch to electric cars, according to Michelin, we increase tire wear by up to 20%. According to Goodyear, it’s up to 50%. This is validated also in other research that we’ve seen.

edit: To be clear, EVs are better than ICEs and every car should be an EV. But EVs also suck and we still need to transition away from car dependence.

[–] hedgehogging_the_bed@lemmy.world 8 points 1 year ago (3 children)
[–] SkepticalButOpenMinded@lemmy.ca 13 points 1 year ago (3 children)

It’s even worse than I said. Tire pollution is even worse than tailpipe pollution.

Another article from Forbes:

Tires were already a problem, but when we switch to electric cars, according to Michelin, we increase tire wear by up to 20%. According to Goodyear, it's up to 50%. This is validated also in other research that we've seen.

I’m not seeing anything about how brake dust is nearly as big of a problem. Literally dozens of articles about how bad tire pollution is. I’m not even mentioning microplastics! Tires are the biggest source.

[–] SendMePhotos@lemmy.world 6 points 1 year ago (8 children)

Fuckin hell I never thought that the tire pollution would increase. Makes sense because the batteries are heavy af right?

[–] SkepticalButOpenMinded@lemmy.ca 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Yes, much heavier. It wouldn't be such a big problem if car sizes weren't exploding, and if people didn't demand such absurdly high battery ranges "just in case", even though their daily commute is not 300 miles. Consumers also seem to want unnecessary power instead of efficiency, negating some of the benefits of the transition.

[–] arc@lemm.ee 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I have an EV that I just charge at home when I need to, once every 5-8 days depending, and then in the morning unplug it. That covers driving to work, shopping, gym, school runs and occasional trips to the airport. The stats show most cars never go more than 20-30 miles on average. Maybe there are some hyper commuters, or people who drive hundreds of miles per day but they're atypical, not the norm.

I've had the car 6 months and haven't even tried using a public charger. That said, public charging infrastructure in Ireland is very spotty and if I did need to make a long journey I probably would be concerned about where I was going to charge and have to plan ahead. I am expecting that since over a 1/5th of new car sales are electric that the situation will improve over time. The UK is much better, France / Germany are even better and Norway is insanely good. Demonstrates it is possible and will happen eventually.

I think governments could do much to alleviate range anxiety if every public charger was required to be visible in a national database - occupancy, cost, reliability, rate of charge and other information so that apps could be built around it. At the moment it's a hodge podge of apps which seem to have their own partnerships with different providers so it's very hard to know all the chargers from a single app.

[–] zalgotext@sh.itjust.works 4 points 1 year ago

I imagine the increased torque of electric motors has something to do with it too. That extra power has to go somewhere

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[–] hedgehogging_the_bed@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Forgive me, but the articles suggested that the problem with tires was their deteriorating into miroplastic particles with use. What other miroplastic problem with tires is there that you're not mentioning?

You're right, I wrote that confusingly. I mean to say that the research I linked to is just about air pollution from tires. There are also non-air pollution consequences, as microplastics leak into our food supply, drinking water, our environments, our oceans, etc. This is no small matter.

Everyone who cares about the environment is in favor of EVs over ICEs, but some bad effects will actually increase with EV use. We need to transition every remaining car to EV, but we also need to transition society away from cars.

[–] floofloof@lemmy.ca 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The Guardian article mentions that there's some hope of mitigating that problem though:

The average weight of all cars has been increasing. But there has been particular debate over whether battery electric vehicles (BEVs), which are heavier than conventional cars and can have greater wheel torque, may lead to more tyre particles being produced. Molden said it would depend on driving style, with gentle EV drivers producing fewer particles than fossil-fuelled cars driven badly, though on average he expected slightly higher tyre particles from BEVs.

Dr James Tate, at the University of Leeds’ Institute for Transport Studies in the UK, said the tyre test results were credible. “But it is very important to note that BEVs are becoming lighter very fast,” he said. “By 2024-25 we expect BEVs and [fossil-fuelled] city cars will have comparable weights. Only high-end, large BEVs with high capacity batteries will weigh more.”

That might be so in Europe. I am not so optimistic about the US, where car sizes keep increasing. We seem to want to “consume” the extra efficiencies with more powerful engines and bigger range.

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[–] phoenixz@lemmy.ca 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Source for that? If there is an increase of that at all it would be surprising. "Massively" definitely is just make belief.

You don't need to make up shit to support your point

[–] SkepticalButOpenMinded@lemmy.ca 1 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I have already responded to multiple people who asked for sources, which you apparently didn't bother to check. One source I cite mentions a 20-50% increase in tire wear. A simple internet search will bring up literally dozens of articles.

It's always amazing how the laziest and nastiest people on the internet, like yourself, are always the most ignorant. You don't need to start shit to support your point.

[–] arc@lemm.ee 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Here is Kwik Fit, the largest tyre repair / refit retailer in the UK saying the complete opposite. They say that conventional tyres wear faster. The downside of EV tyres is they're still more expensive. It's not hard to find similar points made by others who have the knowledge to make the comparison.

So yeah but no.

[–] SkepticalButOpenMinded@lemmy.ca 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You’ve completely misunderstood. EV tires are designed to wear slower because EVs eat through tires faster. If you put more expensive wear resistant tires on a lighter conventional car, it would obviously wear even more slowly.

Your link is not journalism. It doesn’t even cite its sources. It’s literally a blog entry by a tire company encouraging you to buy tires. The multiple experts cited in the actual news articles I posted say increased tire wear from EVs is a huge environmental problem.

[–] arc@lemm.ee 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Wait, so you you're saying EV tyres are designed to wear slower, and yet they eat through tyres faster? Did that even make sense in your head? And if this design is a thing (slower wearing I mean) then why don't ICE vehicles also do it?

And no EV tyres are not more expensive because of whatever you imagine but because of simple market forces - EVs are less common therefore, tyres cost more.

And yeah my link is not journalism. It's pointing to actual companies that deal with breakdowns and replace tyres. The sort of people most people would implicitly trust to know what they're talking about.

I don’t know if you’re willfully misreading me. I am saying that EV tires only wear slower when they do because they have to be specifically designed to withstand the extra friction. But EVs wear equivalent tires faster than non-EVs because EVs are heavier. If you don’t understand this, I’m not sure how to explain it to you.

Imagine someone saying “Chairs for obese people last longer than those for normal weight people.” That may be, but only because they are designed that way. You can’t change the laws of physics. EVs are heavier. As the many experts across the actual journalistic sources I cited say, that means more friction and more wear.

[–] greenmarty@lemmy.world 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The who comes with claiming facts bears the burden of proofing not the one who asks for proof.

[–] SkepticalButOpenMinded@lemmy.ca 3 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I provided sources multiple times. Jesus, does anyone read on this thing?

[–] gayhitler420@lemm.ee 3 points 1 year ago

Thank you for your service 🫡

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