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this post was submitted on 24 Nov 2023
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AFAIU Japan uses this term for a different reason. The government (at least domestically) does not recognize these people as slaves. When they reported on their investigation on whether the sex labor was forced, they purposefully used a language that can be taken both ways. I don't know if Abe's cabinet changed the stance, but the word comfort women is still in use because Tokyo can refer to them without classifying them slaves.
If you have a source for that alternative fact you argue, you are welcome to share it here.
Here in Japan, the term comfort women is used for the exact same reason it is used in English and around the world: it clearly and unequivocally describes the people being it is used to describe.
It's not a weasel word used to avoid talking about the truth. It's just the word that people use to talk about a specific group of victims. It's a useful term that quickly gets us to the core issue, rather than starting at an extremely vague term and requiring clarifying language every time we talk about it. It's just basic communication.
Is this case being talked about in Japan? Has japanese news media reported on it at all?
Yes.
So what have you been hearing? Are people supportive? In denial? Angry?
Caveat: I said yes because in the past they have reported, and I don't see a reason not to. If I check the internet, though, I don't see an article. Yet.
Now. The atmosphere here is somewhat complicated. The Japanese internet space is a solid ultraconservative shit hole. They are openly racists who spew hate speech. Even Yahoo Comments, the biggest news website here with user comments, have absolutely no moderation.
Accordingly, 99.9% of the net space is full of denialism. They also point at the JPN-SK agreement Abe made, which declared that SK will not demand money from Japan for the comfort women problem.
In reality, the agreement apparently had flaws in wording etc., and we also need to take into account that SK Supreme Court is sometimes criticized by news media for being influenced by national sentiments. Don't get me wrong – I don't say that's necessarily a bad thing given that the Japanese tactics on this issue has been insincere.
Outside the internet space, it's even more complex. Ultraconservatives say media are pro-South Korea. But they'll say that unless they get their racist way, so it's not credible. It's so sensitive it's hard to find a balanced analysis on this one. My feeling is that they are rather neutral. They just report and silently move on without taking sides, in my eyes.
The LDP... they are a mess. A mixture of right-leaning centrists and, again, ultraconservatives.
If I look at the general public, I don't see any group or person siding with south korea. It's kind of understandable. Most people here distance themselves from politics. Ask them what they think, and they'll just say "it's too difficult to me", and they're just being honest. They don't think comfort women were sex slaves. They also don't think they were voluntarily cooperating. These people just don't have an opinion. They never read up on anything political. Just watch TV, work and sleep.
Thanks for providing an insightful comment. Seems like politics follows a pattern everywhere. Sounds like it must be very difficult to go against the political grain in Japan
I wish Japanese people would realize that "not having an opinion" is the same as being rather strongly in favor of whoever is currently in power.
Yes. Couldn't have said that better myself.
Woman selling or giving themselves for comfort or sex isn't an issue.
Being enslaved to do so is.
Sex workers are not comfort women. What's the confusion?
I'm a Japanese. Can you point me to your source now?
Edit:
Here are mine. I should've put these before all this nonsensical nightmare with this person that follows after.
A scholarly article
explaining how Shinzo Abe's government denied coercion in 2007.
Here's the formal Japanese record from the congress.
What source are you looking for? That comfort women refers to women forced into sexual slavery for the Japanese military during the first half of the 20th century? That's just the definition of the word. I'm not sure what you're asking for.
That Japanese people recognize them as sex slaves. The government, media and commoners.
This means that I want a FORMAL source from the government. And news articles explicitly stating this. And some scholarly articles that analyze the perception among the commoners.
No god-damn Wikipedia.
If I don't reply the next time, regard it a failure on your side.
Jesus Christ what a level of pedantry is this... I'm not engaging with this kind of bullshit, so go ahead and regard it as "a failure on my side."
Fucking trolls wasting everyone's time and poisoning every discussion...
So, no, you don't show your source. I treat your argument as such.
I made no argument. There's nothing to source.
You're trying to start a kindergarten-level fight and I'm not interested in engaging in that kind of behavior. I'm here for discussion, not pedantry.
Go waste someone else's time with your trolling.
You made an argument. I'm demanding the source of your argument.
Keep on going like I didn't twice already say I'm not interested in engaging in trollish pedantry.
I'll take your words seriously after you learned that calling someone a troll is not a pass to properly making an argument.
👍👍
And you call me a troll. Wow.
I keep telling you I'm not interested in having this conversation with you, and you keep replying and trying to pick a fight.
That's how everyone reading this knows you're a troll.
When someone repeatedly tells you they're not interested in talking to you, and you keep trying to start an argument, you are a troll.
Your argument below is suspicious:
Can you show me a source of this?
That's what I asked. You didn't, and started calling me a troll. I clarified my argument and you just continued calling me a troll. That's on you. You can't show the source.
My god, dude. I told you that I am not fucking interested in engaging with you and you just. will. not. stop. I'm not going to suddenly start engaging with you now that you pretend to want to actually have a discussion. That ship sailed several comments ago.
When someone repeatedly tells you they're not interested in talking to you, and you keep trying to start an argument, you are a troll. You want to argue so fucking bad that you just can't stop trying. You are a fucking troll.
Go start your argument with someone who gives a shit.
Kishida has been pm since 2021, sure you’re Japanese?
I raised Abe's name because Abe's conservative voter base who demanded such a change.
Get rid of that "this person is not Japanese" attitude. It only humiliates you. Are you a proud nationalist or something?
If someone references the last well known leader to ask about a country, that’s a giant red flag that they’re lying about being from the country. Same for saying “as far as I understand” to describe the situation in that country. I’m not at all humiliated by not automatically believing someone I don’t know online behaving suspiciously, nor does it imply I’m a nationalist.
And you were wrong. Nice try.
I asked a question. You answered. How is that wrong?
A giant red flag that was wrong. Again, nice try.
Red flags are warnings that you should look into further, which I did. They’re not absolute predictors, but signs to probe. I stand by my question.
You asked someone else in this thread to produce a type of document that has never existed for anything (a government agreement that a word means a certain thing), then when they couldn’t, explained that an argument made without evidence is meaningless. How is due diligence about the claims people make a surprise to you?
I asked for that document because I suspected it does NOT exist. In a series of trying to prove me wrong, you have only continued to make the wrong assumptions about me. Just stop.
I don’t think you’re wrong and haven’t tried to do anything to prove you wrong. I asked a question, then I’ve explained why I asked it several times, because you’re the one misunderstanding. It’s obvious that you knew that document couldn’t exist. I brought it up to show that asking if the base of someone’s claim is true is in fact, normal on the internet.
That doesn't make any sense...
According to you, you merely asked me if I'm actually a Japanese. No intention to disprove my argument. Instead, you wanted to argue, uhm... what?
The only answer I can come up with is the following.
If you have an alternative explanation, you are welcome to tell me that.
This is petty as hell, but sure.
Tbh, I’m very confused about this interaction too. I’m not Japanese, though, I don’t know how things are there. I just saw someone with a reasonable perspective seeming to lie, so I wanted to look further into it, because I don’t have first hand knowledge of it and it’s hard to research because of the controversy surrounding it. I was just checking sources, I don’t know why this interaction is so hostile.
But yeah, I don’t think you’re wrong. I don’t know enough to be well informed about comfort women specifically, but Japan has not generally dealt with its behavior during WWII in a spectacular way, so it’s not hard to believe that it’s doing the same re: comfort women. I don’t want to just assume bad things about Japan though, so if two people are representing different sides in a discussion about a cultural stance towards something, it’s relevant information if one person is falsely saying that they’re from Japan.
I honestly expected you to just respond in super slangy Japanese, because that would have ended the conversation in a satisfying way for all of us.
Why do you want the source (?) of my nationality rather than that of my arguments?
I mean, by questioning my nationality you basically told me I was lying about my nationality. And, you say that wasn't going to upset me? It makes no sense.
And how am I supposed to prove my nationality? Was I expected to be stupid enough to upload my passport? But even then, how would you verify that's actually my passport?
I don't know how anyone can expect otherwise, but it's only natural for the conversation to go hostile, whatever excuse you make with after the fact.
Yes I'm angry. But anyone'd imagine you write your comment differently if you didn't want to anger me...
I care if someone is suggesting they know more than they do by lying about where they’re from.
I don’t care what your passport says, if you’ve been there long enough to know what’s actually going on. Since your understanding comes from living there, it is the source of your argument.
That’s why I said I expected you to answer in Japanese slang.
But yeah, I do assume people on the internet are lying, I thought that was normal. I don’t eat angry when people doubt my statements online, as long as they’re not spreading disinformation while doing it. I assume we all have a blank slate online.
I’m sorry I phrased my doubt in a way that angered you- that really wasn’t my intention. It seems you doubt me there, but I similarly have no way to prove that.
I think we’re at an impasse on this.
For your convenience, I should have put these from the beginning.
English source:
A scholarly article
explaining how Shinzo Abe's government denied coercion in 2007.
Here's the formal Japanese record from the congress.
I appreciate the work. I know that the government of Japan has not addressed its role in the war well. I just wanted to know if the two people talking about their perspectives as Japanese people (regardless of nationality) were actually speaking from experience or not.
If your perspective is based solely on government action, that’s entirely fair (though not what I expected). I’m American born, but live in Germany and am in the naturalization process here (perhaps why nationality isn’t important to me- people whose families have been living in Germany for four plus decades are frequently not citizens), so I understand shame in your government’s actions, specifically to the degree that the governmental position is more important than the general public opinion (a typical American would probably not have an opinion towards American interaction in the Philippines, for example, so the government position is the only relevant one).
In that case though, I agree that it’s irrelevant that you’re Japanese, as you’re forming your opinion not on your experience with Japanese people, but on official government documents.
My personal experience is summarized here:
https://kbin.social/m/news@lemmy.world/t/651681/-/comment/3748207