this post was submitted on 19 Dec 2023
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Is that no emissions at all along the cars life from production to scrap? Cus EVs today are in large just virtue vehicles.
Interested to see where that data comes from, as looking at the lifetime emissions of an EV vs an ICE vehicle inclusive of fuel EVs are generally significantly lower emissions. If you're only considering the emissions associated with the manufacture of the vehicles, EVs do result in more GHG, but very quickly once both vehicles are actually in use the benefits of EVs become apparent.
EPA.gov
MIT
New York Times
University of Technology Sydney
Cambridge University
While somewhat misguided, they do still kinda have a point: Car centric culture really does have a high environmental cost regardless of power source. Switching from ICE to EV is a good start, but we also need to address urban sprawl, and push for better mass transit as well as cycling infrastructure.
I'm working from memory, but I think I have heard their claim before, and the data it is based on is probably 20 years out of date. The proportion of electricity produced by methods like solar and wind did not used to be what it is today, and the production method of electricity plays a significant role in lifecycle analysis of electric vehicles.
The Cambridge link you provided notes that electric vehicles are not better for the environment in Poland because most of their electricity is produced by burning coal. It also compares France and the UK, and notes the difference between emissions because of the different production mix of electricity.
I believe I saw similar comparing US states, but do not have a link. The numbers I remember is 1-2 years in states with more natural gas, nuclear, and renewable energy, up to 14 years for West Virginia and Wyoming as still mostly coal
IIRC, if you pick the worst state for power sources (W. Virginia) and the worst EV (the Hummer), you end up with a pathological combination that emits more CO2 than any ICE over its lifetime. Literally any other combination, and it's better.
Are you saying that the emission resulting from an EVs production is the same as the emission from and olds car production and lifetime of fuel usage combined?
Production of batteries, handling discarded batteries, breaking of minerals FOR the batteries, and producing the electricity have all been shown to be worse for the environment than than the entire life of a traditional car
You got something to back that up? The last study I read (I think it was from Volvo comparing one of their EVs against the ICE version of the car) showed between 60 and 80 thousand miles (depending on the energy generation mix) was the tipping point where EVs became better.
And that was probably about 5 years ago, there's been a lot of significant development in EVs since then.
Well, please show me a trustworthy study of the difference between ICE and EV emissions per mile during their lifetime. The ones I've read always say "in their lifetime", but they don't take into account EV batteries need changing after about 10 years .... And batteries are as we know the "big bad" of EVs. The absolutely only true comparison would be all emissions from all sources spread out over either per mile or per year. A combustion car can easily last 20 years, which isn't really a fair comparison to the 10 years.
Hey you made the claim in the first place, you have the burden proof. Don't attempt to shift it.
This article, and everying about this subject, presumes EV is better than ICE. That's the positive claim.
Show me the math, the studies. If it holds true, this should be easy. And, it would end the debate.
Data trumps. If the research is so overwhelmingly in favor of EVs, let's publish that info everywhere for people to read, study, analyze. Lots easier to convince people with the information out there, warts and all.
No, you'd hemm and haw and avoid the problem. We've been here before.
Well I claimed that I've not seen a study that accounts for all the different attributes at once. So there's really nothing for me to provide?
But if you really need it, MIT did a study in 2019 and they explicitly (in about 2 sentences) declare that they don't take into account battery lifetime, capacity degradation over time, battery efficiency's sensitivity to cold, the problem with disposing of depleted batteries. According to their study an EV has about 55% of the emissions of a traditional ICE of comparable size, not accounting for the aforementioned details, nor the fact that EVs replace batteries. I.e. they assume one set of batteries for the entire lifespan.
Now, I might very well be wrong. And I probably am (judging from the down vote bombing). But I just want to see a thorough study of both types of vehicles with everything taken into account from basically drawing board to junkyard.
No, you claimed:
Furthermore, when asked about a source for these claims, you come out swinging with the ever popular “no, you” defense.
Again, link your sources (MIT study) please.
https://energy.mit.edu/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/Insights-into-Future-Mobility.pdf
Edit: Another link on batteries https://earth.org/environmental-impact-of-battery-production/
Great, it’s better if you link them where the claims were made though.
I hadn’t heard of earth.org so I looked them up: https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/earth-org-bias/
Not too bad. Though I’m well versed in battery tech and industry, it’s an incredibly dirty industry, coming with cited, fair sources is paramount.
Na mate, I asked first.
Conventional ICE can last 30 years, with engine and trans rebuild, which is trivial from a materials standpoint.
We have multiple 30 year old ICE vehicles that still get 30mpg, have air conditioning and unlimited heat.
EV will never compete with that unless we find new ways to make batteries.
No calculation I hage ever read has ever shown that. There is an initial increase of emission from the new cars production, which is why there are discussion about retrofitting existing cars, but even if we never improve our battery technology there is a dramatic gain in lowered emissions.
Dependable and available public transit is the answer to our transportation needs with electric vehicles substituted in areas where public transit presents implementation challenges.
Electric cars cannot be the backbone of our system if we look to reduce emissions and environmental hazards to a level that allows us to continue existence as we know it.
In Canada?
Obviously the metro areas and immediate surrounding suburbs can improve, but it's a huge country
I dunno some intercity buses and trains would be nice... Like unless you can fly or rent a car I don't know how you get to most of the country without your own car.
You mean like where 80% of our population is?
I do mean that. Where did I suggest otherwise? Is Canada big a huge country?
Hahahaha public transit.
Have you looked at the energy/environmental costs of trains or busses?
Hint: they both consume the same energy fully loaded or empty, as a start.
And train infrastructure is a massive user of concrete, steel, copper, etc.
Per capita it's insanely lower than the personal cost alternative.
Why would you measure per capita? Not everyone will use it. How about per passenger?
Carbon tax deals with industries that creates emissions by taxing the fuels that cause the emissions. All businesses involved in making EVs and EV parts can choose between using taxed GhG-emitting fuels, or non-taxed cheaper renewable sources. Free markets will pick the winner, but at least all winners will be producing EVs only.
What makes you say that?