333
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
this post was submitted on 31 Dec 2023
333 points (95.1% liked)
World News
32082 readers
815 users here now
News from around the world!
Rules:
-
Please only post links to actual news sources, no tabloid sites, etc
-
No NSFW content
-
No hate speech, bigotry, propaganda, etc
founded 4 years ago
MODERATORS
If you continue to provide funding and weapons to an ongoing genocide, you are 100% complicit. What you are suggesting is that the ends justify the means.
Yeah, we totally reined in their terror by giving them everything they wanted. Biden thinks if he is nice enough they will return in kind. He tends to use the same tactic when negotiating with Republicans 🤦♂️
What the fuck are you even talking about? Your comment makes no sense at all.
You talk about how foreign policy is about power and influence - I am saying Biden doesn't understand how influence works as evidence by him not using his power to influence Israeli policy even though it is leading to a more volatile middle east and lower approval ratings at home. In other words, he is undermining his own influence. But go on and tell us how we're children for expecting more.
What power do you think he has? You do realize that the Israelis do not need to rely on us for military aid, correct? You also do realize that there are a couple other world powers who are not allied with the US who would be very happy to cozy up to Israel which means that they would have much more power and influence in the Middle East because at that point it would be Israel and Iran.
I think you must be at least somewhat naive about just how right wing and authoritarian the Israeli government is.
If the US has no influence over Israel in regards to this conflict than that sounds like a critical policy failure and a huge geopolitical risk.
Edit: I'm curious what potential Israel allies you speak of that are not aligned with the US? Our own allies are distancing themselves from this clusterfuck.
Say it with me. Foreign policy is about POWER, not morality. It is about power, influence, and power coupons.
Jesus, it's like talking to literal children.
If you don't see how Israel is undermining America's soft power then idk what to say.
Having influence over something doesn't mean that you control it. The US has exerted heavy influence to attempt to curb the worst of the Israeli impulses (full scale ground operations being one of the successful ones). But that does not mean that the US controls Israel.
Israel is hell bent on repeating every mistake that the US made post 9/11. The latest is the equivalent of the "mission accomplished" banner.
The next mistake(if they make it) is going to be expanding the scope of what they intend to do.
The argument is that we're not using our strongest influence by virtue of not threatening to withhold arms (even though it would be in US interest to do so to preserve influence in the region). I am not arguing that the US controls Israel like some vassal state.
Those arms you are talking about have already been appropriated by Congress, UNTIL 2028!!!
But I'm guessing that you didn't know that because it's a lot easier to sit on social media and wax eloquent about how foreign policy should mirror morality.
Even if we could stop the arms shit, it wouldn't matter. Israel has it's own military industrial complex and there are several other countries that would happily trade with Israel to give the US influence over the region a black eye.
Do you understand? Israel does not NEED our stuff. Sure it helps, but you seem to be under the delusion that if we didn't supply weapons they wouldn't have any. That is woefully naive and incorrect.
"But why do we give it???"
To which I repeat: Foreign policy is about power and power coupons, not morality. This is the way it is, not the way it should be. Kissinger was a soulless ghoul, but he understood exactly what foreign policy is all about (which is the main reason why most of us hated him with a fiery passion). Nixon should have ensured that he took a long stroll on the deck of a submerged submarine, but alas, missed opportunities.
Maybe one day foreign policy will resemble morality, but that day will not come for a very, very, long time. If ever.
If we have so little influence over Israel than that undermines your argument that we're getting "power coupons" in return. I'm not even debating you on the morality of Kissinger, I'm meeting you where you stand: if we don't exercise our influence then we are going to lose it (and Kissinger agrees with me on that at least)
You are strawmanning me. I never said no influence. I said that influence does not equal control. The us has a lot of influence, but as a parallel, did the entire rest of the world advising the us against invading iraq do anything to stop the us? No. The US said "You're either with us or against us.".
I also never suggested that we were getting power coupons in return. What I said was that foreign policy is about power and power coupons.
If Israel is hell bent on doing what they are doing there is no amount of influence that is going to stop them. If at that point you suggest doing it militarily, I would dismiss you for being a blithering idiot.
We have been exercising our influence. Are you fucking blind? Biden et al have been doing pretzels trying to keep this from spilling out of hand. You have to be blind. I assume you're not an idiot. Maybe you are one of these people who are incapable of reading between the lines. Yes, in front of a microphone, Biden and anyone else says unequivocal support for Israel etc etc, however, at every other turn, Biden, Blinken, and every ambassador and negotiator is trying to get Israel to "Lessen ground operations", "Allow humanitarian pauses", "make a pathway for aid", etc.
I am probably farther left than you, politically, but you need to understand that in the same way that fox news, oan, newsmax, and whatever else can whip republicans into a frothy furor, left leaning publicans can AND DO do the same to lefties. It's very easy to leave out nuance which provides context.
I suggest spending some more time looking behind the headlines into what is actually being done, because it is a LOT. Israel is currently hellbent on being a bunch of self righteous jackasses, and so they aren't taking a lot of advice. And a lot of the advice comes in the form of "I fully support you and we are behind you 100%, but man, I wouldn't do that shit if I was you".
At this point I'm done discussing this with you. You seem to want to just cling to outrage and ignore nuance because it's easier that way, and if that's the case, then I'm wasting our time. Additionally, you keep trying to build a straw man, and I have little patience for that sort of thing.
Maybe I would receive your arguments with more grace if it wasn't laced with personal judgements.
You don't come off as an intellectual powerhouse buddy
I'm not your buddy, pal.
The power to do what? If it's not the power to force morally good behaviour then it's all pointless.
The United States seeks to maintain influence in the Middle East for several reasons, including geopolitical stability, economic interests, and regional security. The region is vital for global energy resources, and stability in the Middle East is crucial to prevent potential threats such as terrorism and the spread of extremism. Additionally, the U.S. maintains alliances with several countries in the region to promote shared interests and counterbalance regional powers.