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Biden under pressure to act amid new fears of ‘ethnic cleansing’ in Gaza
(www.aljazeera.com)
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this post was submitted on 03 Jan 2024
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Is it right to be morally outraged by an ongoing genocide, ethnic cleansing and domicide? Yes or no?
The indisputable facts that Hamas has committed heinous terrorism and that the holocaust happened and was unimaginably awful doesn't excuse the crimes against humanity committed by the Israeli government, so please pack your fucking whataboutism away.
That's not whataboutism. Whataboutism is changing the subject to derail the conversation. This is simply addressing a different point of view in the same discussion.
No. Mentioning the opinions of uninvolved people IS changing the subject of whether or not genocide is bad and should be stopped.
A comparable if much lower stakes example would be if we were discussing whether or not it's ok to say that Wings were better than The Beatles and then some rando chimes in to inform us that 10% of techno fans think that the world doesn't need guitars.
Fun had, let's return to the actual: 10% of the respondents of a poll saying ANYTHING doesn't make genocide more or less acceptable and bringing it up in spite of that is a whataboutism, a distraction and a very crass way to try to derail the conversation.
It's not whataboutism to demonstrate that an election-significant number of Democrats believe Hamas bullshit over reality, and that the number of people who believe that is enough to change Dem support from strong majority agreement with the President to disagreement.
It's also not whataboutism to point out that nearly a third of people polled have generally no opinion on such basic things as "did the Holocaust happen" or "was the Hamas terror attack a big deal" or "does Hamas target civilians."
War does indeed suck and you're allowed to not like it and even use your irresponsibly inflammatory language, but it's absurd to suggest these comments are whataboutism.
Even if the pro-IDF propaganda piece you linked to had successfully demonstrated that, yes it would still be a whataboutism.
What Americans believe has no bearing on whether the Israeli government should be allowed to systematically slaughter and demolish their way through Palestinians, including children, at a rate completely unheard of anywhere in the world in recent years.
Yes it is. That is by definition whataboutism. Maybe you need to look up what whataboutism is. While you're at it, look up "bad faith arguments" and several logical fallacies.
And war crimes perpetrated against a mostly defenseless civilization population of over 50% children are much worse.
Gee, thanks! So generous of you!
Fixed that for you
Again, just Google it. You can also use a better search engine, but PLEASE look up the word you keep pretending you know the meaning of.
Again, while I don't necessarily otherwise disagree with you, you are a little confused on whataboutism.
Nope, I'm not. Those comments mention things that have absolutely no bearing on the topic at hand but the one bringing them up tries to derail the discussion by insisting that they're not only relevant but in fact crucial to the matter at hand.
That's textbook whataboutism.
You do understand that you are literally expressing a thing that some Americans believe, yes? Like, you get that your position is an opinion, right?
Yes, it is indeed an opinion that committing atrocities is a bad thing to do. Well done on finally getting something right.
It's a VERY popular opinion though, one shared by so many people that the world has decided that people are not allowed to do that bad thing.
That the Israeli Apartheid regime is committing genocide, ethnic cleansing and domicide isn't an opinion, though. It's an objective fact by all definitions of all the words.
A fact not changed by whether or not some misguided Americans think or pretend to think that the atrocities of Hamas are justified or that the holocaust didn't happen.
You're not dumb. You know that people disagree with you on the atrocities you claim.
For instance, it's impossible to have an apartheid system against another country. Israel is, by definition, not an apartheid state.
It's hilarious to me that you'll try to bring up the definitions of words after that - perhaps this is why your opinion is so extreme.
Wow, you've already doubled the number of things you've been right about! At this rate we'll only have to keep arguing a couple months more until you stop being an insincere moron!
I know that some people deny objective reality, yes, but that doesn't make objective reality any less real or any more subjective.
Palestinians, Muslims and Arabs living in Israel and Israel-occupied and/or -controlled Palestine are treated as, at best, second class citizens. Desmond Tutu agreed that Israel is an Apartheid state and he of all people should know.
I guess the truth sometimes looks like hilarious comedy to those who believe in ridiculous gaslighting such as that coming from Times of Israel, AIPAC and Faux News 🤷
Yeah, it's SO extreme to think that the lives of Palestinians matter! Such an audacious notion! 🙄
You went to all the effort to cite Tutu and yet provide no evidence for this, because they're not, and they literally have representation in Israel's government.
Yeah, because everyone knows that having 1/12 of the knesset be Arabs means that there's not systemic inequality and oppression of Arabs and other minority groups! 🤦
here's some evidence you're gonna ignore or pretend to refute.
It's proportionate to their population.
This article is about the Palestinian territory, a different country than Israel.
Lol they literally acknowledge it.
No. As pointed out in the article you just pretended to have read, the Jewish and Palestine populations of the territories controlled by Israel are roughly equal.
"between the Mediterranean Sea and Jordan River, an area encompassing Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territory (OPT)".
It's right in the opening sentence of the fucking summary the report starts with ffs! 🤦
Gaza is not in Israel lol. It's an occupied territory, not part of their country. Hamas runs Gaza as the official government.
Gaza is de facto controlled by Israel and as such is their responsibility.
Even if Hamas wasn't a terrorist organization first, a political advocacy group second and a government as a WAY distant third, they still wouldn't be able to properly take care of the people of Gaza, given the inhumane conditions created and enforced by Israel.
Both of these statements are false. Not "I disagree." They are false and they would offend the fuck out of Gazans.
They control the food supply, the water supply, the power supply, the fuel supply, the medicine supply and the international aid supply.
That means that they're in control and it's in no way offensive towards Gazans to acknowledge that.
Hamas didn't build any infrastructure with Iran's money. They built bombs. Israel voluntarily provided power to Gaza, but is under no compulsion to provide power to an enemy they're actively at war with.
Where would they have gotten water for the cement or fuel for the machines? Money's not very useful when someone else is actively preventing you from using them on the things you need.
As does Israel with the tens of billions of dollars the US sends every year. Israel spends more than the entire GDP of Palestine on murdering Palestinians every year.
It's a quasi-occupied territory that they have made sure can't get power in any other way. For Israel not to provide power to Gaza is Israel preventing Gaza from having power at.
And they're actively at war with Hamas, not the entire population. The vast majority of which has never harmed a single Israeli citizen and over 50% of which is CHILDREN.
Turns out the restrictions only applied because Hamas wants genocide. Money can, in fact, be exchanged for goods and services, and was for years prior to Hamas.
They are at war with the government of Gaza, correct.
So 6.8 million people have to suffer and die for it? You call that justice? Also, Hamas may want genocide, but they don't have the power to carry it out. Israel's government HAS the power and IS committing genocide.
The majority of Gazans weren't alive the last time Hamas allowed a vote, let alone old enough to vote.
Hamas is not a legitimate government and their atrocities are neither the fault nor the responsibility of the civilian population.
They are the government, and they have been consistently attacking Israel for 16 years, culminating in "Israel's 9/11"
Imagine Israel without the Iron Dome you don't want to give them money for.
Suffering happens in war. That's why war is bad. 6.8 million people won't die though. There will be 6.77 million Palestinians in Gaza after this war, ideally closer to a 2 state solution than if Hamas was still around.
You know what? Fuck it.
Keep using an imagined genocide to excuse an actual genocide.
Keep simping for a fascist government.
Keep defending an apartheid ethnostate system.
Keep excusing war crimes.
Keep victim blaming.
It's not like your awful perspective actually matters to anyone who matters anyway, thank fuck.
Have the day you deserve, genocide cheerleader.
I've had a pretty fucking amazing couple weeks and that seems unlikely to change.
Then stop doing that and start having the days you deserve.
Stay angry about it forever lol
What other country has their roads, electricity, water, trade, and police controlled by another?
Like there are words, and then there are facts on the ground. It walks and quacks like an apartheid.
What other country is blockaded by all of their neighbors (including Egypt and Lebanon, and even Jordan which is just nearby) for 30-60 years of terrorism?
If words don't have any meaning to you, then your argument admittedly makes more sense. When you say "apartheid" you just mean "shit I don't like." It's basically the "neoliberal" of Israel lol