Star Trek Social Club
r/startrek: The Next Generation
Star Trek news and discussion. No slash fic...
Maybe a little slash fic.
New to Star Trek and wondering where to start?
Rules
1 Be constructive
All posts/comments must be thoughtful and balanced.
2 Be welcoming
It is important that everyone from newbies to OG Trekkers feel welcome, no matter their gender, sexual orientation, religion or race.
3 Be truthful
All posts/comments must be factually accurate and verifiable. We are not a place for gossip, rumors, or manipulative or misleading content.
4 Be nice
If a polite way cannot be found to phrase what it is you want to say, don't say anything at all. Insulting or disparaging remarks about any human being are expressly not allowed.
5 Spoilers
Utilize the spoiler system for any and all spoilers relating to the most recently-aired episode. There is no formal spoiler protection for episodes/films after they have been available for approximately one week.
6 Keep on-topic
All busmittions must be directly about the Star Trek franchise (the shows, movies, books, etc.). Off-topic discussions are welcome at c/Quarks.
7 Meta
Questions and concerns about moderator actions should be brought forward via DM.
Upcoming Episodes
| Date | Episode | Title |
|---|---|---|
| 11-28 | LD 5x07 | "Fully Dilated" |
| 12-05 | LD 5x08 | "Upper Decks" |
| 12-12 | LD 5x09 | "Fissure Quest" |
| 12-19 | LD 5x10 | "The New Next Generation" |
| 01-24 | Film | "Section 31" |
In Production
Strange New Worlds (TBA)
Section 31 (2025-01-24)
Starfleet Academy (TBA)
In Development
Untitled comedy series
Wondering where to stream a series? Check here.
view the rest of the comments
Tuvix adds another element though. Tuvok and Neelix were already dead and Tuvix was alive. I think that makes this different from the standard trolley problem - still a hard choice but not the same.
Yup. This is my problem with it.
IMO, once Neelix and Tuvok stop existing, they are dead. They have no consciousness, they aren't around. They're gone. They're ex-people. They're not sad about the situation, because they no longer exist. There's no brain there to process any of this. Once you are dead, you don't have a right to live, especially not if it means the death of another.
Tuvix, on the other hand, existed. He was conscious, self aware, intelligent, alive. He was dragged, crying, begging for his life, pleading for anybody to step in and stop him from being murdered. Then he was killed to bring two people back to life.
Now I know people will say "but 2 is more than 1, so it's fine to kill him", but that's never sat right with me. What was that Picard speech about arithmetic not being a good reason for discarding the rights of sentient beings?
Tbh I'm astounded the Star Trek community is massively on the "murder of an innocent is ok if it saves more people and he's a little ugly" side
Death is a moving line, even today. There's a reason doctors don't declare death until there's no way to revive a patient. Using that same logic, if there's a way to revive Neelix / Tuvox, are they dead? It's going to come down to how you personally define death.
This is true but hard to argue within the universe as we just don't have the info and there are in universe contradictions about transporters. Been a while since I saw the episode but for me - 'nonexistentance' is close enough to 'dead' that Tuvix should have been allowed to live.
I found it strange the claim started with the language "a Trolley Problem" and concluded with the language "the trolley problem".
It seems one could make any choice into "a" trolley problem. But Tuvix problem is certainly not "the trolley problem". This is about emergence of consciousness. In the trolley problem, the characters cease to exist. Neither choice here would end, say, Tuvok's consciousness.
Arguable, since the result is neither Tuvok nor Neelix, but a new one based on those two. They're not active, seperate consciousness stuffed into a Tuvixian body.
And unwinding Tuvix ends Tuvix's consciousness. Neither Tuvok or Neelix keep Tuvix as part of themselves afterwards, he'd basically die if that was to happen.
Are you claiming it is in fact equivalent to the standard "trolley problem"? (I don't think you are, but if you are, I'll add)
If the point is even "arguable", I claim that is enough to distinguish it from the trolley problem, because that argument doesn't come up there.
That was my point. I agree that the consciousness that emerged is distinct from Tuvok (or of course Neelix, but I felt like an ass last time I used the "say Tuvok" construction).
Not exactly, was more thinking along the lines of both choices involving an end to the consciousness of one or the other. Either Tuvok and Neelix are held in limbo/non-existent from that point onwards, or Tuvix is unwound.
But I am curious, would it not? From my understanding, at the end of the shift, you're still sacrificing one life to save two, or two to save one, which seems like it would harken back to the fundamentals of the issue. Assuming that no cloning or replicative shenanigans takes place, either Neelix/Tuvok are retained, or Tuvix is.
That said, there was some leeway in that Janeway had no urgent time-pressure to return them back to their bodies at the time, unlike with something like Transport-split Kirk. She mentions needing her crew back, but that could easily happen at some point in the future, and that might alter the variables of the problem, since part of the trolley problem is that there isn't any time to take a third option, nor get help from other places.
Ahhh... I see. When I said "end", I was thinking permanently, irreparably. Not just pause.
I like your plan of giving Tuvix a long and fulfilling life while the rest of the crew does fuck all lost in the delta quadrant.