914
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
this post was submitted on 20 Jan 2024
914 points (97.2% liked)
politics
18888 readers
3485 users here now
Welcome to the discussion of US Politics!
Rules:
- Post only links to articles, Title must fairly describe link contents. If your title differs from the site’s, it should only be to add context or be more descriptive. Do not post entire articles in the body or in the comments.
- Articles must be relevant to politics. Links must be to quality and original content. Articles should be worth reading. Clickbait, stub articles, and rehosted or stolen content are not allowed. Check your source for Reliability and Bias here.
- Be civil, No violations of TOS. It’s OK to say the subject of an article is behaving like a (pejorative, pejorative). It’s NOT OK to say another USER is (pejorative). Strong language is fine, just not directed at other members. Engage in good-faith and with respect! This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban.
- No memes, trolling, or low-effort comments. Reposts, misinformation, off-topic, trolling, or offensive.
- Vote based on comment quality, not agreement. This community aims to foster discussion; please reward people for putting effort into articulating their viewpoint, even if you disagree with it.
- No hate speech, slurs, celebrating death, advocating violence, or abusive language. This will result in a ban. Usernames containing racist, or inappropriate slurs will be banned without warning
We ask that the users report any comment or post that violate the rules, to use critical thinking when reading, posting or commenting. Users that post off-topic spam, advocate violence, have multiple comments or posts removed, weaponize reports or violate the code of conduct will be banned.
All posts and comments will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. This means that some content that violates the rules may be allowed, while other content that does not violate the rules may be removed. The moderators retain the right to remove any content and ban users.
That's all the rules!
Civic Links
• Congressional Awards Program
• Library of Congress Legislative Resources
• U.S. House of Representatives
Partnered Communities:
• News
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
You said you'd listen to the podcast. I'm going to hold you to it. It's a comedy show. And pizzagate is ridiculous. But you offered to argue their points. "they're mean to my friends" isn't going to cut it.
The best evidence for your claim is that link? Please read the FIRST paragraph and let's discuss the reading level of The Emperor's New Clothes.
I've read it pretty deeply now. You better start connecting some dots. There is too much secret sourcing.
I'm not even sure what "claims of debunking" you even mean. What even are the claims of pizzagate? That the emails are boring, but if you squint, you can pretend it's a conspiracy. It's the least interesting thing I've heard. What's to engage with? There are no bodies. No victims. The crimes alleged must have victims. What court is going to convict anybody on these charges with no victims? Have the jury squint at instagram pics? Please give your argument some grounding.
I am not afraid of a lack of victims. The existence of victims would blow this wide open.
Please tell me of a historical case (aka in reality) where a pedo ring was busted with no known victims.
Depends which particular claim you are talking about.
Hillary locking up kids in a basement ... ridiculous. This strawman was invented to be debunked.
A pizza restaurant owner with an unhealthy interest in kids ... not ridiculous.
It means the claimer is 100% sure that a particular theory is false.
Flat Earth - debunked
Political figures discuss illegal topics over email using codewords - could be true
Pizza owner distributes CP from his restaurant website.
The Podestas talk in code over email.
Instagram was used to joke about child abuse.
You are 100% sure there are no victims?
Child services have interviewed the guardian's of the girl taped to a table?
It is impossible that these people were discussing abusing kids?
To debunk a theory, that is what is needed.
OK, this is never claimed. Investigations by law enforcement to find the required level of evidence to present to a court were never conducted. Why not?
Any where images are traded. Victims are unknown but unfortunately exist.
They interviewed a child that was taped to a table, huh?
You have made NO claims whatsoever. You asked what I thought. I said it was nothing. All you've said is everything that I say is wrong. I have no idea what you think pizzagate is.
So now that you FINALLY made a claim. Let's talk about the girl taped to a table. Does this girl have a name? A picture. Please post the instagram of this poor child taped to a table. I bet the picture will send chills though all the spines of those that see it. POST THE PICTURE! Or I will. You certainly have provided me evidence of a child taped to a table. Can do you have a picture where she isn't smiling?
Was she interviewed by the FBI? Is that your big, scary evidence? The thing that should open my eyes. Please provide evidence of this child that was taped to table. That's a pretty BIG claim. Do you have a picture? I mean, I have one that you showed me. It had a warning above it how disturbing the picture is. Would you post so everyone can see how scary it is?
All you've said about pizzagate, is that I don't know what pizzagate is. Is it that a child was taped to a table?
No. Not that I'm aware of. Do you have more information?
Are you certain it is nothing or is it probably nothing. If the former then I would like to know why.
Yes. The question of interest is, do child services know her name?
It's in the steemit summary linked above.
So it's not abuse if they enjoy it? Heard of normalisation?
I don't think I've said anything of the sort. You seem quite knowledgeable. However, if you are certain it has been debunked then you must be an expert.
Since knock_knock is too demure to show graphic content here, I will share the photo. These are the words above the photo in the document
spoiler
THIS is the "most widely referenced" picture of all the pizzagate allegations. THIS is why it's like pulling teeth to get a pizzagater to make ONE real claim. The emperor has no clothes. They are so proud of a mountain of nothing.
There is no one who is credibility alleged to have explicit material of this child. It is at this point where I am expected to appear to ask for this material. This could be a crime. Be careful. Look how fast this reply was locked-and-loaded.
If you think that question is void now due to that retort, you are mistaken. Anyone reading along can see the photo now. You really should have tried to get ahead of that. I bet no one was picturing masking tape with the picture you created in words.
I have showed the only evidence provided that this child exists. Are there alleged to be other materials of this child that are objectionable? Is this a victim?
"You can't use their silence as evidence." What? They sound exactly like nonexistent victims. There must be a difference between real victims and nonexistent victims. Silence is clearly not a good measurement. Are there any other methods to look for them?
I know this isn't a claim. It's a point worth discussing. There are people in our society whose job is gain the trust of people by showing integrity. They are called journalists. A journalist knows that if a reader catches the whiff of dishonesty, they lose that reader permanently.
So a journalist with a long, track-able career is who is best equipped to make such sensitive accusations. This is usually how rings would get busted. So who is putting their career on the line for this? Is Mike Cernovich the point-person on these matters? These accusations are dangerous. Your dismal of that is sickening, but I'll come back to that later.
This is the worst framing of epistemology I've seen. You are quite literally turning every argument in a "confidence game". Surely you see that the world can't function like that.
But I will give you this, you finally connected the dots in a way that I see how pizzagate is real.
We've had too many exchanges before I finally can see what pizzagate actually is.
Pizzagate: The believe that real world damage can be caused simply by never admitting any harmless explanations regardless of plausibility.
The fucked up thing here, is that with this formulation, Pizzagate is true.
1.) The only thing that little girl's guardians did was upload a photo of the aftermath of child's play.
2.) Now, 4chan enters the scene. 4chan and reddit simply make up ANYTHING they want to accuse these people of. Consequence free. There is no journalist in the loop. There are no stakes. You get federal authorities to harass strangers. And you are proud of it.
3.) THEN this visit is now "evidence". You keep pointing to police action, like it's suspicious, but 4chan did that shit. I don't know who you are fooling, but it isn't me.
These three dots are what you connected. You have convinced me it's real. It's scary. It's sick that people would do this.
You can claim it's about protecting kids, but there have been no rescues or even calls for help.
Here's from Wikipedia
Welch was there to liberate victims. Who did he avenge? Who is lucky that Welch was there to listen to the cries of help that 4chan told him exist?
Three bullets are what I'm calling dangerous, sicko. You know what is happening. You know the bullets were real.
You seem very proud that the feds were sent to investigate this. That seems to be a claim of victory. It's disturbing. There was no foundation. You just hate these people. It's unpleasant to say the least. You're proud you can imagine such horrible things happening. You don't even need proof. And you just want the world to hate these people like you do, and based on as flimsy shit as you accept as proof.
I'm done here. Pizzagate sucks. You can come bother me at /c/knowledgefight.
I gave you 3 claims, and you picked your own 4th.
Ah, now I see why you were so weirdly desperate for me to post that particular photo. You had a narrative needing to be fulfilled. Sorry to disappoint.
Yes, and they haven't been acted upon either.
Potentially, yes. How are you imagining this kid "coming forward" to the authorities?
Yep. By photos posted online by their abusers. By having child services interview their guardians.
And should have been handled by the police. They weren't.
No-one claimed this either. Debunkers love to invent strawmen to attack.
Your favourite picture is far from the only suspicious Instagram post/comment
Literally their job. And they point is they weren't doing it.
You are the one defending the guy with a "members only" file share on his website who makes child abuse jokes on Instagram.
This applies equally to debunkers who think "no basement" is proof that pizzagate is false.
I'm not convinced any part of pizzagate is real, but you (and other debunkers) are convinced it is 100% fake. That's what is interesting.
Pizzagate debunkers are just as fervently irrational as the unquestioning gun toting believers.
Would you like me to read one of those 3 claims?
So let's see we're YOU are finding this instagram stuff. Hmm..
Ok, we know where your BEST evidence is. Let's figure out this instagram claim.
Here are the times YOU brought up Instagram:
You talk a lot about instagram for someone who finds the FIRST instagram picture from your GOLDEN source embarrassing. Here, I'll add context. I'll expand the crop. And let see what this fear-mongering document says...
It's the "most widely referenced one". YOU are the one pointing to internet "frenzies" as evidence. An internet frenzy was whipped up about this ONE picture in particular. There are no other pictures related to this child. YOU are claiming the other photos are connected.
Adding more context makes the evidence look WORSE.
Also notice that the simple explanation isn't good enough: "please let me know if there are more". They want another explanation because then "see, they're changing their story". For some reason they want the reader to be suspicious of only ONE explanation. Reality works in a strange way for people who think like this.
Then every pizzagater ever says, "that's why you picked THAT photo. Of course the one my opponent chooses one that makes me look silly. They won't show you the other stuff I sent them. Please read the first paragraph at least, where it says if you don't see EVERYTHING, you'll be too ignorant to know the truth."
They are always saying "look at everything. but don't look at anything."
The only claim I made is that I have seen no proof of illegal activity. There are plenty of times in my life where I have seen proof of illegal activity. It's a pretty common thing to see on the news. I don't see why I should worry about people who have weird tastes in art. I see a lot of mixing pizza, weird art, and sex in that doc, but not kids. I'm worried about one who see that photo as normalization of child abuse. (Here is where that claim of "I'm not claiming THAT photo is what i'm talking about. don't you see how vague i'm being. look at everything" This is 30-Rock's "Homonym Game" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZLkcFns8Ks )
Seeing a girl smiling with masking tape on her arms does NOT look like normalization [i use US spelling]
You are either being very disingenuous here, or you find that image stirring. I do not want to accuse you of anything, but the reason I want a journalist in the loop is because every pizzagater with any sizable voice is WITHOUT FAIL either (a) trying to convince people (including themselves) that SA material of minors is more common than it is or (b) very homophobic.
The document you provided is teeming with homophobia.
I am implementing a new rule. I will not engage with pizzagate arguments with people unless they pledge: "There is a gay person in my life that I love, and they live a meaningful, fulfilling life." That's probably not hard. Honestly, I don't care if you know them personally.
If you can't do that, I'd rather deal with a more serious mind virus.
Because that is where Alefantis posted.
There are more. E.g. wearing a "pizza slut" t-shirt.
Yes. Alefantis commented on most or is connected via his restaurant.
If you want to claim a slamdunk debunk then the simple explanation must be the only explanation, or the suspicious explanation is shown to be impossible.
Your "debunk" falls far short.
You claimed pizzagate is absolute garbage. That it was debunked.
2 dudes on a street correr and a BMW parked nearby is not proof of illegal activity. But it is suspicious. You want the police to check it out.
Dude, you're the one obsessed with this particular photo.
"There is a gay person in my life that I love, and they live a meaningful, fulfilling life." Send your gay strawman away.
Please remove the quotation marks. That's not how words work.
There is a gay person in my life that I love, and they live a meaningful, fulfilling life. I love gays. Great fun.
What I don't like seeing them being irrelevantly dragged into arguments in an attempt to distract and score cheap points.
This has nothing to do with showing that the claims made by pizzagate are impossible.
Cool. There are gay people I love too. Wouldn't change a thing about them.
Sure am. You see someone showed it to me in a document they linked. They called the dossier the best evidence of pizzagate. That dossier has this particular photo. It even said "We might as well start with this picture of a girl taped to a table, which is probably the most widely referenced one." Of course, that " girl taped to a table" was standing on the floor with her arms affixed to a table with masking tape, and not even a lot of tape.
That photo sure stirred up a frenzy. My claim was that anytime anything that is purported to be concrete evidence is investigated, it sure looks like nothing upon inspection. The pizzagater always plays the Homonym Game. "I was talking about a different photo?" Well, I'm talking about this photo.
So if you argue that frenzies show there must be something happening, I will point to THIS picture. Because it is THIS that picture that by itself caused a frenzy. Read the words around the picture. Then read my proposal of the only definition of pizzagate i can agree with
Pizzagate: The believe that real world damage can be caused simply by never admitting any harmless explanations regardless of plausibility.
So 4chan decides to use Pizzagate as a weapon to sick on this shop owner and his friends and family. It fits just fine.
You act like I'm cherry-picking, because you know most people aren't going to check, and the kinds of people that do check don't fall for this shit.
Well, that piece of "evidence" is clearly trash. Anyone trying to sell it to me thinks I'm stupid. Why would I bother?
Do you have a dossier that does NOT include wastes of time?
Did they? It's not a bad introduction but voat had much better documentation.
Again? Let's discuss this one instead.
The photo is not illegal, but it is suspicious, especially when combined with Alefantis' other posts.
See. You have to add in and highlight "by itself".
4chan didn't make him post suggestive comments or host suspicious files on his website.
You have failed to make this argument clearly.
So one item labeled a waste of time allows you to disregard the rest. This is a repeat of the "no basement=debunked" argument.
Pizzagate debunkers are just as illogical as Pizzagate true believers.
I'm not talking about another photo. You have a mountain of evidence. Please edit out any trash designed to waste time. That picture is a pretty clear litmus test. I'm not stupid enough to be scared of that photo. If you think I am, this will not go anywhere.
Then you aren't going to debunk them.
If you had been able to debunk pizzagate this step would not be necessary.
Sadly I think I agree.
I'm not really interested in measuring how stupid you are.
Then what are you even doing here? Honestly. You asked if my favorite podcast had a pizzagate episode.
I said, i don't think so. I'll ask others. I don't like talking about pizzagate because every claim is dumb. I said:
None of that has changed. The more I say, the more you shift and want me to look elsewhere. It's clear to me that anyone who could read that doc and not be embarrassed that they are trying to spook you with that picture, is not worth engaging with.
You picked out me saying "no victims coming forward". You know there's still not any, right? No matter how many different things you tell me. You called it a "bad argument". I'm not here to argue. You brought this shit up. It's not an argument. It's a fact. You can keep claiming not to make an claims. But facts are facts. Calling them "arguments" makes them sound like they can be "bad". Nope. I said a fact, and you took personally.
So you link some homophobic shit. i don't want to read that. There's some horrible allegations that if some unhinged individual who has a fuzzy notion of epistemology reads, things could get and have gotten ugly.
Your lies are consequence free. Is there anyone (journalist, pundit,...) with a reputation to protect that says anything about this?
Can you show where I had expressed any desire to debunk this? This might be my first use of the word in this thread.
I said it's not interesting. I haven't seen any claim attached to anything concrete. Why would I engage? I'm not a witness.
The only document you have has claims that no one can be serious about. I'm asking you to remove those. You're just wasting my time.
Yes. Thanks for that. Sincerely.
A lazy, blanket statement leading to this lengthy thread.
It's also interesting how claims that it was debunked dissolve when examined.
I linked to some evidence. It's hard to do so now that search engines have been scrubbed and voat has died.
Because the claims are not impossible, or even unlikely.
At the beginning I gave you the NYT and a steemit link with additional evidence. Nothing has shifted.
I didn't write it. There are not a lot of other options that search engines index. Just view the pictures if the text offends you.
All the linked evidence is factual. I've not drawn any conclusions. Not sure what I could have lied about.
This was the closest
Whenever you state that every pizzagate claim is dumb.
Ok. I'll remove everything from that document except for this
No one will touch this with a 10-foot pole. People that the pizzagaters victimized have been hurt, and some of the worst offenders of the conspiracy theory were arrested. No one will put a stake on this.
All the people that used to talk about this have disappeared. There once was a rush when people were talking about that document. Adding new threads. Making connections. This was going to be it. But nothing came.
I believe you may be chasing a high that was at its peak when it looked like pieces were coming together.
Everything fizzled. Now you're trying to get strangers worried about a list of files. It's not the same.
The emperor has no clothes here. No one else will put their reputation on the line.
I'm sure you have people in your life that you get along fine with. This is, provide no one brings this up. That has to feel isolating. Most people have moved on.
I was being honest. I'm not interested in pizzagate. But I have heard from so many people describing what it was like to have once believed it. And what it felt like when they were able to reconnect with people who pushed them away.
Obviously, I don't know you. You're fine to tell me I'm way off base. We're strangers here, but it's just food for irl-thought.
One crazy person has been jailed. No-one was hurt. All because the police failed to investigate.
Because there is nothing new to talk about. Although if someone had done a thorough debunking then that would be new information of interest.
This may be true for people searching the Internet and finding clues. Crowdsourced Sherlock Holmes. I only got interested when the crackdown happened, subreddits were closed and journalists silenced. Then claims of debunking popped up (usually without logical argument).
Debunking is much more interesting, scientific and rigorous than the actual conspiracies. James Randi, moon landings, aliens, 9/11. You learn a lot from a good debunk (hence my interest in your favourite podcast)
No, I'm trying to establish if it has been debunked. That there is no possibility of truth in the claims.
If you said pizzagate was unlikely, dubious or unconfirmed then I would agree and we wouldn't be having this exchange.
Neither do the debunkers following behind.
Did you ever used to post at 4chan?
No. Too difficult to follow conversations. My exposure has been 2nd hand by reddit or reformed text
i used to post on 4chan all the time. the hard to follow part was a feature. It let's you see only the good stuff in a way that's hard to explain, but I'll try.
The fun of 4chan is that everyone is full of shit. In fact, there posts about how much shit everyone else is full of. It's fun.
So how do you have fun on 4chan? It's easy. You lie. You're anonymous. It's consequence free.
It's been said that people like "bad jokes" because jokes split the room into two groups: those that get it and those that don't. A "bad joke" has a very forced punchline so that everyone gets the joke. There is no split in the room. Everyone hates the joke together.
A lie on 4chan splits the readership. Those that are ready to debunk anything. And those that "yes, and..."
The "bad lies" were no fun. Easy debunk, no one elaborating. The other lies were the fun ones.
The debunking group is the loudest, most numerous, and had tons of fun. There were infographics on how to tell if the user was pretending to be two different people ("samef--"). There were infographics on how to see photoshop artifacts. All kinds of good skeptical reasoning and debunking tools. The debunkers proved the liars lied.
The debunkers would share huge greentext png files of reformated text laying out how full of shit that all the liars are.
The other group had a different kind of fun. They found that if they see an obvious lie, they "yes, and...". That's an improv cliche that means you fully accept the OP's premise and develop it fuller yourself.
Wrestling fans would call it "kayfabe". Horror fiction on reddit has "nosleep" rules. It's in general, a willful supension of disbelief. These are "metarules" in a sense. They are rules saying it's against the rules to mention the rules.
Of course the yes-anders got debunked to hell and back. There are all kinds of greentext proving it.
But, the yes-anders shared greentext too. They had huge pngs full of undebunked truth. It was easy to do. It's all lies, and they are editing this huge png files. They just leave off an debunking.
Is it really that easy to just cut out the debunking? Wouldn't it just be easy to check?
HELL NO. That's the fucking point of 4chan.
It is IMPOSSIBLE to follow conversations. Everyone is only responding to what they came to see. There's no "I'll get back to that". You got to spew your shit while the shit is flying. Or you miss the fun.
This is where the debunkers always lose. There is just too much shit to debunk.
People reform the text into the png files I was mentioning. Put out a mountain of stuff. IGNORE ALL CONTRAPOINTS. And there are some people that believe them. When I said
I mean, they are the yes-anders. The people pretending to believe it because its fun to watch people try to debunk things when they never admit other, plausible explanations. I would have to say that the "99%" figure is an uneducated statement, so your guess is as good as mine.
But there are those that see this spread without any debunking because the debunking is lost. And anyone that tried was driven crazy by people pretending not to understand. So it's now an echo chamber of those that fell for it.
4chan was fun. I'm glad I quit.
The only time 4chan /pol caught my attention was when FBIanon posted about the Clinton foundation. I thought it was a fun LARP, then Bill Clinton has a clandestine airplane meeting with Loretta Lynch.
But given that nothing has happened to the Clinton foundation I would accept that FBIanon has been debunked.