this post was submitted on 02 Feb 2024
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What Matrix/Discord/Teams alternatives are there that FULLY support E2EE across Desktop and Mobile? (feddit.de)
submitted 9 months ago by Lemmchen@feddit.de to c/privacy@lemmy.ml
58 comments fedilink hide all child comments
 

Crosspost: https://feddit.de/post/8502102

Element for Android doesn't support searching in encrypted channels and I think you can't use E2EE in the browser at all(?), plus basically every other client has even more drawbacks when it comes to E2EE.

My team recently tried RocketChat, but E2EE is obviously an afterthought for that project as it has even more limitations than non-Element Matrix clients (no searching, no pinning, no file upload, no edit, etc.). Plus Jitsi integration seems to be buggy right now (at least on my Windows installation).

What else is out there that's not on my radar? Is Matrix with Element really the best option right now? Is there no project that puts E2EE above all else?

Edit: Should be self-hostable and (FL)OSS.

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[–] ono@lemmy.ca 29 points 9 months ago (2 children)

Correcting some misconceptions...

Element for Android doesn’t support searching in encrypted channels

That's true of regular Element for Android, but it's being replaced with Element X (which is built with Rust). I would expect search to be added there if it isn't already.

and I think you can’t use E2EE in the browser at all(?)

I have done it in Firefox, so that's false. Perhaps you had trouble with a specific browser?

plus basically every other client has even more drawbacks when it comes to E2EE.

Nheko handles E2EE just fine, so that would seem to be false as well.

Since you're looking for recommendations, it would help if you said which clients you tried and what problems you had with them.

In case you haven't seen it, you can set a Features: E2EE filter on this list:
https://matrix.org/ecosystem/clients/

[–] haui_lemmy@lemmy.giftedmc.com 1 points 9 months ago

Thanks for the great explanation. You said it a lot better than I could.

Imo, matrix is worth using if the bugs dont make it impossible (which they dont for me).

For peeps that absolutely need the perfect finish (which sounds like mixed priorities but maybe its just me) one could use signal.

Peeps who need polished stuff and great privacy should probably pay for it.

[–] Lemmchen@feddit.de 1 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (4 children)

I would expect search to be added

That's what I expected fo regular Element for Android as well, but it never came into existence.

Element X

I fail to find a feature comparison between the two. Does it have feature parity with Element yet? If not, what's missing?

Firefox

Firefox is my main browser and has been for the last 15 years or so. It definitely was Firefox, but maybe I'm confusing it with a different issue. There definitely was some feature in Element Web that didn't work and told me to use Desktop instead, unless I'm imagining things now.

Nheko

Interesting, I'll take a look.
EDIT: Nheko is NOT a mobile client. I've misinterpreted your statement.

https://matrix.org/ecosystem/clients/

That unfortunately doesn't specify the extend of the E2EE support (like search), but I appreciate your effort.

[–] ono@lemmy.ca 4 points 9 months ago

Does it have feature parity with Element yet?

Not yet. It's in beta.

https://element.io/labs/element-x

EDIT: Nheko is NOT a mobile client.

If you specifically meant mobile, you could have said so. Your statement was, "every other client has even more drawbacks when it comes to E2EE." Nheko disproves that statement. It also suggests that some alternative mobile clients might handle E2EE at least as well as it does. You might want to try them.

By the way, text search with end-to-end encryption happens to be tricky to implement, and Matrix projects aren't funded by corporations with deep pockets. Tempering your expectations regarding development speed is probably worthwhile here.

[–] Pantherina@feddit.de 2 points 9 months ago

Element X works really well but Servers need to additionally run the sliding sync program. They still run normal synapse, but the sliding sync needs to be added. I could not find a list of Servers that have that installed.

[–] LWD@lemm.ee 2 points 9 months ago (2 children)

There definitely was some feature in Element Web that didn't work and told me to use Desktop instead, unless I'm imagining things now.

It's search.

Even in Element, last time I checked, search was incredibly half-baked and mostly useless.

I know you don't want to use Signal, but it actually has searches that function.

[–] ono@lemmy.ca 1 points 9 months ago

Back when encrypted search was being developed for the Electron app, I think someone had it working in a standalone browser as well. Perhaps that was with the help of a browser add-on; I don't remember for sure. I suspect github.com/t3chguy would know, as he seems to be active in discussions of that feature. It might be worth asking him about it.

[–] Pantherina@feddit.de 0 points 9 months ago (1 children)

You cannot compare Signal to Element at all.

Like, at all.

Signal has no search for Groups, there are no public groups or channels. Signal has a monopole server that is supposed to be OpenSource but nobody can run their own one.

[–] LWD@lemm.ee 0 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Strange reply.

  • Read the post, the use case doesn't require public groups.
  • Read the messages above, I was talking specifically about search
  • Does this mean that Telegram (the messaging app) is closer to Element (the Discord-like app) than Signal (the messaging app), because it has channels?

Etc

[–] Pantherina@feddit.de 0 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Yes, search on Signal is fundamentally less complex than on Element because there are no Groups or Servers to search.

You are talking about searching in local messages I guess, which is unrelated and should work everywhere.

Telegram, Signal and Element are 3 different products. Signal is very restricted but encrypted. Telegram is way less restricted, the desktop client is somewhat standalone but has no encryption which is bad. Element is way more complex and allows encrypted and unencrypted.

[–] LWD@lemm.ee 1 points 9 months ago

More weird assertions.

Signal has groups.

And I asked, is "Telegram (the messaging app) is closer to Element (the Discord-like app) than Signal (the messaging app), because it has channels?"