this post was submitted on 04 Feb 2024

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577

‘Andrew Tate is a symptom, not the problem’: why young men are turning against feminism (www.theguardian.com)

submitted 9 months ago by MicroWave@lemmy.world to c/news@lemmy.world

405 comments fedilink hide all child comments

Teachers describe a deterioration in behaviour and attitudes that has proved to be fertile terrain for misogynistic influencers

“As soon as I mention feminism, you can feel the shift in the room; they’re shuffling in their seats.” Mike Nicholson holds workshops with teenage boys about the challenges of impending manhood. Standing up for the sisterhood, it seems, is the last thing on their minds.

When Nicholson says he is a feminist himself, “I can see them look at me, like, ‘I used to like you.’”

Once Nicholson, whose programme is called Progressive Masculinity, unpacks the fact that feminism means equal rights and opportunities for women, many of the boys with whom he works are won over.

“A lot of it is bred from misunderstanding and how the word is smeared,” he says.

But he is battling against what he calls a “dominance-based model” of masculinity. “These old-fashioned, regressive ideas are having a renaissance, through your masculinity influencers – your grifters, like Andrew Tate.”

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[+] GBU_28@lemm.ee -10 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (1 children)

I see feminism as a logical first step towards true egalitarianism. As in: the patriarchy is/was a real thing, and women are/were impacted. Modern feminism is in some ways an over correction (but as a movement is completely justified). Hopefully future societies will bring the needle closer to even/fair/just than ever, and we are currently witnessing temporary (but significant) backlashes.

Edit: not sure why downvote? I clearly acknowledged the importance and validity of feminism, while sharing my opinion that an egalitarian society is the goal state, where all persons are respected regardless of what they are. Is that not the goal? To live in a world where specific groups don't need to fight for rights, visibility and respect?

[–] maynarkh@feddit.nl 15 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Not the person downvoting, but my comment was mostly about that boys and men do experience their own problems, and they are not being listened to. I am specifically saying "feminism is all good, but has nothing to do with this, and does not even aim to solve this".

You then went, "well yeah, but first feminism before we get there". It's like as if there was a piece about feminism and someone went, "First we have to solve climate change, then we can talk about women's issues!". The problem is that men are getting left behind. Not with rights or visibility or anything like that. It's more about having a voice, ideals and support.

The point is, this is not about feminism. Feminism is not a be all end all answer. And people keep pretending it is.

[+] GBU_28@lemm.ee -8 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Feminism is not the end all be all is the core of my point as well.

I referred to the current backlash of boys seeking people like tate as a symptom of ongoing progress towards a more egalitarian future.

[–] maynarkh@feddit.nl 14 points 9 months ago (1 children)

The whole thing is that this is not about feminism in any way. Viewing these boys' problems only through a lens of "how does this relate to feminism" is the problem. These boys' problems are not about feminism. This is not about women or women's issues.

The reason it becomes that is that both the right, which only listens to them to exploit them, and the left, which refuses to listen to them at all, says that their problems are about women.

Men and men's issues exist outside of the context of feminism as well.

[+] GBU_28@lemm.ee -9 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Right! And it would be great to arrive at a societal level where we address everyone's needs!

Due to obvious reasons, the challenges of feminism are center stage currently.

I'm talking about decades long societal progress, where we arrive at a place where everyone is getting their needs met. We aren't advanced enough in our education or discourse or healthcare to provide that to everyone at once.

[–] BaldProphet@kbin.social 4 points 9 months ago (1 children)

What I'm hearing from you is that men are a desirable sacrifice on the altar of equality.

You're risking serious social stability problems by justifying the ignoring of men's issues. There can be no equality as long as the problems of one sex are more important than the problems of the other.

[–] GBU_28@lemm.ee -3 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

Absolutely untrue. You are assuming my opinion, when I'm stating my observation.

I'm not ignoring men's issues, or suggesting that is good to do. In fact, I'm saying/agreeing it's absolutely true that men are currently being forgotten.

I'm saying humanity is not unified. Social respect is a system in hysteresis. A pendulum swinging. There is no eternal agenda, but hopefully a trend towards a healthy center. Previously, women and minorities were forgotten. Now, in a different way (and not surpassing the injustice.of the past, but still critically Important), men are not being discussed to a sufficient level.

I hope the future frees us of this. I am discussing decades past. And decades future