I also think people should have to kill the animals themselves if they want to eat them rather than be disconnected by buying them in stores to be morally consistent but that's just me

[–] SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I think if you're going to post things on the internet you should have to build the device you're using to do that yourself. And write all the software needed to do it.

Or maybe it's silly to put arbitrary moral requirements on other people. If you think it's wrong to eat meat, sure whatever. But trying to set some arbitrary goalpost that you know isn't feasible to make it so something you already think is morally wrong to be extra morally wrong because it's hypocritical or whatever is kinda weird.

[–] flashgnash@lemm.ee 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Not sure this is the best example becauss there is a similar issue there of phones being made via basically slavery, I hypocritically say typing on my Samsung phone (though looking into buying a fairphone next which is the best I can possibly do while still having the practical neccesity of a smartphone)

The difference there is though that I would have no moral problem with building the phone and writing the software, physically capable or not. I'm not saying people should need to physically be able to kill the animal all by themselves, just that they should be morally able to, if given a gun pointed at an animal's head, pull the trigger and be ok with that decision

My point is not to be the gatekeeper of what's right and wrong, my point is to force people to make those decisions themselves and to be morally consistent. If people are ok with killing animals then that's fine by me, the bit I don't like is the level of abstraction we have that means people don't have to think about the consequences of their choices too deeply

[–] abraxas@lemmy.ml -3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

I actually hate how distanced we are from meat in general, and agree that in general people should have the opportunity to kill their own meat.

That said, here's a real counterpoint. PTSD. I know people with severe PTSD from witnessing some unspeakable brutality like the violent death of a loved one or friend. Nobody should ever ask a PTSD patient to kill an animal themselves. Which is the problem with the whole "have to kill animals" thing entirely. Too many people have some traumatic event.

Honestly, I think that's where a lot of vegans come from. I have an extended family member who snapped after watching one of those vegan documentaries. She was weird before then for reasons none of us really knew, but she starved herself until she was hospitalized for malnutrition and her hair started falling out. When she got out, she wouldn't eat meat anymore and wouldn't talk about it. She isn't a "vegetarian" in any good meaning of the word, constantly struggling with nutritional issues and avoiding meat entirely because she can't bring herself to eat it. It has become a quiet ethical thing to her, but it's more than that.

So IMO, we gotta cure PTSD before making people kill. I DO think we should offer "kill and butcher your own meat" as an elective field trip in school. I got to visit my first farm in middle-school and it really helped give me a balanced view of the world of food. Even if it was just a chicken, if I could've killed my own, cleaned it, and cooked it, it would've really rounded out my head on the topic back then.

[–] flashgnash@lemm.ee 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I think if you're going to get PTSD from killing an animal then you shouldn't eat meat. If the act is so traumatising for someone then clearly they have some kind of conflict about it.

If you already have PTSD fine those people get a pass don't want to cause more harm but that's an incredibly small subset of people

I don't think people who are incapable of killing an animal (mentally not physically) should be allowed to eat said animals

I'm a vegetarian and am perfectly healthy, on the higher side of BMI, regularly go to the gym and have above average muscle mass so the argument that you can't get the nutrients you need is bullshit. I'm sorry about your family member though that sounds like a full blown eating disorder, not veganism

[–] abraxas@lemmy.ml 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I think if you’re going to get PTSD from killing an animal then you shouldn’t eat meat

PTSD is a reaction to trauma, not a measurement for whether something is ethical. I have a MASSIVE problem with that idea. Sounds like this isn't about anything rational, just an excuse to discourage people from eating meat.

And PTSD is often about a situation and not just something in that situation. You can see a dead body without getting PTSD, but if it's your best friend hanging from a rafter, a little different. Ditto with animals. I know at least one person (alluded above or elsewhere) who got PTSD by being very impressionable and young and watching very specific documentaries about animals dying on a day she was also sick. I'm sure I could come up with an animal-kill scenario that would give most who experienced it PTSD. That doesn't mean you shouldn't eat meat if you can. There's almost certainly people out there who has gotten PTSD that relates or triggers by something plant-based.

And how exactly can you confirm which people do or do not already have PTSD? It's one of the most underreported disorders, and in certain circles (including those with a high rate of severe PTSD) stigmatized.

I don’t think people who are incapable of killing an animal (mentally not physically) should be allowed to eat said animals

Do you agree this extends to plants? I am incapable of growing plants because I have a common HFA symptom (despite not having HFA) that things like dirt and paint drive me into a panic. My wife does all the gardening in my family because I can't grow a tomato. By your logic, I should ONLY eat meat (as I do not have a problem killing an animal, though I'm not sure whether or not I could butcher one based on the same reasons I can't grow vegetables).

I’m a vegetarian and am perfectly healthy, on the higher side of BMI, regularly go to the gym and have above average muscle mass so the argument that you can’t get the nutrients you need is bullshit

I really wish you'd leave the reddit 'tude at the door. I'm trying to treat you like you're an intelligent person, but your reply to me pointing out that some vegetarians/vegans have irreperable nutrition issues is that it's bullshit. Is it your opinion taht anyone who even lazily tries a non-meat diet is automatically 100% healthy? Is it your opinion that you can prove ALL humans can be healthy on a vegan diet, even those who have intolerances to common staples of said diet?

Also, more directly, is it your opinion that every person with a high BMI that goes to the gym and has muscle mass is automatically healthy? That seems like a severe underrepresentation of health. There are real long-term risks of hair loss, weak bones, muscle wasting, skin rashes, hypothyroidism, and anemia in vegan diets as well as an elevated risk of severe strokes. Ask any honest nutritionist and the claim that we actually know enough about nutrition to zero out those risks is nonsense. Claims that veganism is 100% healthy is similar to claims that vaping is 100% safe. In both, there is an unspoken "if done right" AND an unspoken "we think, and except a few studies we don't personally accept yet".