this post was submitted on 02 Mar 2024
83 points (84.3% liked)
Asklemmy
43817 readers
1022 users here now
A loosely moderated place to ask open-ended questions
Search asklemmy ๐
If your post meets the following criteria, it's welcome here!
- Open-ended question
- Not offensive: at this point, we do not have the bandwidth to moderate overtly political discussions. Assume best intent and be excellent to each other.
- Not regarding using or support for Lemmy: context, see the list of support communities and tools for finding communities below
- Not ad nauseam inducing: please make sure it is a question that would be new to most members
- An actual topic of discussion
Looking for support?
Looking for a community?
- Lemmyverse: community search
- sub.rehab: maps old subreddits to fediverse options, marks official as such
- !lemmy411@lemmy.ca: a community for finding communities
~Icon~ ~by~ ~@Double_A@discuss.tchncs.de~
founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
While I agree with you generally, "I think therefore I am" isn't the big hitter it's made out to be. I think it's even followed in the original by a qualifier (don't quote me though), and not as self evident as generally accepted.
It's to do with there being no real way to determine if we are what we think we are. We could be a computer generated entity that's programmed to experience.
Or we could be a brain in a vat, being fed computer generated experiences. There really is no way of knowing if we are actually humans experiencing life as we appear to be.
I expect that many here are aware of this concept, but my reason for laying it all out is for context of the rather succinct way it was once put to me -
"I think, therefore there is....something."
Many think that cogito ergo sum somehow says or at least implies something about the nature of existence, when it in fact does not. So in that sense, it's not the "big hitter it's made out to be," but that's not a failure of the principle, but a failure of people to understand what it in fact says, or more precisely, does not say.
I suspect that the problem is that when people consider "I think, therefore I am," they think that that "I" refers to the entirety of their self-image, and therefore says that the entirety of their self-image, in all its details, objectively exists.
That's very much not what it means or even implies. It never did and was never intended to stipulate anything at all about the nature of this entity I call "I." Not one single thing. All it ever said or intended to say was simply that whatever it is that "I" am, "I" self evidently exist, as demonstrated by the fact that "I" - whatever "I" might be - think I do.
It's not a coincidence that Descartes himself formulated the original version of the brain-in-a-vat - the "evil demon." He was not simply aware of the sorts of possibilities you mention - of the ramifications of the fact that we exist behind a veil of perception - he actually originated much of the thinking on that very topic. He was a pioneer in that exact field.
Cogito ergo sum doesn't fail to account for those sorts of possibilities - it was explicitly formulated with those sorts of possibilities not only in mind, but at the forefront. And that's exactly why it only stipulates the one and only thing that an individual can know for certain - that some entity that I think of as "I" self evidently exists, as demonstrated by the simple fact that "I" think I do, since if "I" didn't exist, there would be no "I" thinking I do.
And more to the point, that's exactly why it very deliberately says absolutely nothing about the nature of that existence.
Thank you for clarifying my clumsy attempt to lay this out, its great when I get a reply from someone who actually knows what they're talking about.