Let's just have a thought experiment: say you live in a house that's owned by your father. He and I get into a fight, I whoop his ass, and then after that I decide that the house is now no longer his to do with as he pleases, and instead I move a random guy from Milwaukee into the house with you. You're not happy with this and are rightly pissed off, but you didn't "own" the house to begin with and I don't give a shit about what you have to say, so I ignore you. After a few months you and this dude are not getting along and get into it. I don't like that you're giving my man shit so I give him a bat to beat you with anytime you complain. He in turn uses the bat to expand into other rooms in the house - now he wants your bathroom, your kitchen, your other bedrooms...until after a while he's taken over the house and you're living in a closet. What's more, you can't get in or out of the house without passing through "his" property now, so you're forced to rely on him for everything. And if you complain, you're told that you're being prejudiced against him and trying to eradicate him from existence. Meanwhile he continually keeps encroaching on your remaining closet space. When you do get fed up from time to time and throw shit at him, he responds by absolutely demolishing your remaining closet space and making it uninhabitable. But he assures you and the neighbors that you're the one abusing him and he's within his right to defend himself against your unjustified and unprovoked attacks. After all, it's his property and you just hate him for no reason. And at this point, you're not even talking about wanting him out of the house anymore - you're just talking about wanting to have restored access to a bathroom and kitchen. But that's not going to fly with my guy. Instead, he figures he can just pancake you in the closet and then do that big renovation project he's been planning for 60+ years. And if you don't agree with that plan? Well, then you're just being hateful and want to see him eradicated clearly.

How would you feel in this situation?

[+] Cleverdawny@lemm.ee -20 points 5 months ago (1 children)

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[–] NovaPrime@lemmy.ml 19 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (1 children)

Countries aren't houses...

No shit. It's an analogy.

Also, in your analogy, these people are somehow magically just moving in as if space and housing is freely available when in reality everyone moving in did it by taking away land from and displacing the people already living in the neighborhood. Of course the people being displaced would feel a type of way about it.

Also, why should the original neighbors have to negotiate with a group of people who moved in against their will and are now slowly starting to take over and assert their presence and values on the original neighborhood home owners? (And let's be clear - an HOA is generally a representative body serving the interest of the neighborhood, so it does not apply in this case as the "HOA" in the historical sense never agreed with this move in the first place. It was the land developers who don't even live in the city or state that made the decision because it was most profitable for them and served their interests. The neighbors had zero say in the whole thing to begin with).

Besides all of that, if we just take the history out of it completely, and just look at the last 8 months: does Israel seem to you like a sane nation? Are their actions and indiscriminate killings justified in your mind? Just based on what we have all seen and what's publicly available from the last 8 months

[+] Cleverdawny@lemm.ee -11 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (3 children)

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[–] NovaPrime@lemmy.ml 7 points 5 months ago (1 children)

It seems like a nation which has been radicalized by decades of failures at peace initiatives and the same decades of unrelenting violence directed at their civilians.

This, imo, is beautifully stated, and on its own could apply to either side depending on framing. Which is why the entire situation is even more sad and frustrating.

Even though I disagree with you on the overall perception of Israel/Palestine, I respect your pursuit of open dialogue so ill ask this since you're seemingly open to engaging in good faith: what would be the ideal solution to bring about an immediate end the extreme bloodshed and shelling of Gaza from a pro-Isrseli perspective? (No gotchas or setups, genuinely interested)

[–] filister@lemmy.world 4 points 5 months ago

Hmmm, let's give you another analogy, perhaps you would understand it better, if you regularly beat your dog to a pulp, and finally your dog decides to bite you, whose fault will that be? Yours or your dog's fault?

This is exactly how Jews immigrated to mandatory Palestine. They bought houses or land and moved in.

Perhaps you should read this article and tell me about the peaceful Jews again: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun

Prior to 1920, the Jews presence in the region of Israel was more or less negligeable. Even when Israel was founded they got the lion share of the territory while also being a minority. They evicted a couple of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians from their ancestral land and until today, they are refusing their right to return. Hmmm I wonder why Arab states were pissed with them.

Shall we also discuss the illegal settlements or the numerous checkpoints, preventing the basic human rights of the Palestinians of free movement? Seriously you should stop sucking Israel's propaganda and open your eyes.

[–] thebardingreen@lemmy.starlightkel.xyz 3 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

They have the choice to negotiate or not, but if they choose war and lose, then their lot is to reckon with the consequences of their actions. Vae victus, as the Gauls said to the Romans.

You sir, are an asshole. You have no moral high ground here and in the face of starving civilians, your beliefs, attitudes and viewpoint ring of hollow and despicable demagoguery. Your soap box is built of boards of blood and suffering and we can ALL see it, pooling around your feet. You're waving a sign that says "Good people of Earth, despise me, oppose me, ostracize me and disregard my words."

It's not OK. You have picked the wrong point of view and when you open your mouth or reach for your keyboard to dispense it, nothing will wash the resulting stench from you, because you're standing on top of this and there is NO WAY to make that a good look. No amount of reasonableness, logic or polite discourse will put you on the right side or make you persuasive.

The side you support has already lost the moral debate and now it's just the practical matter of what can be done about it, given the geopolitical and cultural realities surrounding it. The world will never forgive you for standing where you stand. Someday, you may realize you need to forgive yourself and when that happens, MAYBE we can have a different conversation.

Until then, farewell.