People have been saying for years that she had an advantage and so it wasn't fair, but those advantages seem to ignore that more people voted for her.

He was an independent running as a Democrat, and then claiming it's unfair when the Democratic party was more aligned with the person who had always been a Democrat.

[–] Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In@lemmy.world 4 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

those advantages seem to ignore that more people voted for her.

How can that be ignored it is the conclusion of the argument. Those advantages meant more people voted for her.

He was an independent running as a Democrat,

Listen dear, all politicians who want to be president are independents running as Democrats/Republicans.

claiming it's unfair when the Democratic party was more aligned with the person who had always been a Democrat.

The whole point of a primary is to determine who the democratic party is more aligned with. It is unfair to determine that in advance.

[–] ricecake@sh.itjust.works 0 points 4 months ago (1 children)

So what were the advantages? The usual one I hear listed is superdelegates, which doesn't matter if more people voted for the winner, or that they didn't proactively inform his campaign about funding tricks that the Clinton campaign already knew about.

Are you saying that Clinton was an independent who just happened to align with the party for her entire political career?

I'm not sure you know how political affiliation or "people" work. Being a member of the party for decades vs being a member for months matters. Those are called "connections", and it's how most politicians get stuff done: by knowing people and how to talk to them.

The point of a primary is to determine who the candidate is, not who the party is more aligned with. Party leadership will almost always be more aligned with the person who has been a member longer, particularly when that person has been a member of part leadership themselves. It's how people work. You prefer a person you've known and worked with for a long time over a person who just showed up to use your organization, and by extension you, for their own goals.
We have rules to make sure that those unavoidable human preferences don't make it unfair.

The Obama campaign is a good example. He didn't have the connections that Clinton did, so party leadership favored her. Once they actually voted, he got more so leadership alignment didn't matter and he was the candidate. He then worked to develop those connections so that he and the party were better aligned and work together better, and he won. Yay!

So what rules did they break for Clinton? What advantages did she have over Sanders that she didn't have over Obama?
Which of those advantages weren't just "new people to the party didn't know tools the party made available?”

[–] Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In@lemmy.world 3 points 4 months ago (1 children)

So what were the advantages?

Debbie Wasserman Schultz, chairwoman of the Democratic Party, was found to have sent an email during the primary election saying Mr Sanders "would not be president"

There were six primaries where ties were decided by the flip of a coin — and Clinton won every single one. The odds of that happening are 1 in 64, or less than 2 percent

The usual one I hear listed is superdelegates, which doesn't matter if more people voted for the winner,

superdelegates system favoured Clinton by pre-announcing their support, giving Clinton a massive early lead.

or that they didn't proactively inform his campaign about funding tricks that the Clinton campaign already knew about.

Clinton bought the DNC by paying off the debt created after Obama.

Are you saying that Clinton was an independent who just happened to align with the party for her entire political career?

I'm saying she doesn't align and would happily run as an independent if she thought she would be elected.

The point of a primary is to determine who the candidate is, not who the party is more aligned with.

"The party" is the people who vote in the primary.

Party leadership will almost always be more aligned with the person who has been a member longer, particularly when that person has been a member of part leadership themselves.

Party leadership is not the party.

It's how people work. You prefer a person you've known and worked with for a long time over a person who just showed up to use your organization, and by extension you, for their own goals.

Exactly. This is why the primaries were rigged in Clinton's favor and Sanders and his supporters were right to claim unfairness.

We have rules to make sure that those unavoidable human preferences don't make it unfair.

Those rules were broken. Debbie Wasserman Schultz has to resign.

The Obama campaign is a good example.

Of fairness (or a super strong candidate beating stacked odds).

So what rules did they break for Clinton?

Campaign finance
Debate questions
Impartiality

What advantages did she have over Sanders that she didn't have over Obama?

I haven't researched how unfair Obama had it so I can't compare.

Which of those advantages weren't just "new people to the party didn't know tools the party made available?”

Hilarious you refer to a 76 year old career politician like Sanders as a new person.

[–] ricecake@sh.itjust.works 0 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Quoting a phrase from an internal email out of context makes you seem disingenuous. The emails that were stolen show people being mean, but it also shows that they were consistently not rigging anything. Or does someone making a shitty suggestion and then a higher ranking member of the party saying "no" not fit the narrative your drawing? Or that the only time they talked about financial schemes was after the Sanders campaign alleged misconduct?

In context, Sanders told CNN that if he was elected, she would no longer be the chair person. The internal comment was "this is a silly story. Sanders isn't going to be president" at a time where he was already loosing.

Debbie Wasserman Schultz has to resign.

She did. Eight years ago.

Tldr, party leadership preferred Clinton over Obama. Turns out that preference without misconduct doesn't have much impact.

you refer to a 76 year old career politician like Sanders as a new person.

Oh please. It's even in the bit that you quoted: new to the party. I act like he was new to the party because he was, and his campaign was run by people who didn't know the party structures. When their inexperience with the party tools led to them not taking advantage of them, they cried misconduct for the other campaigns knowing about them.

[–] Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In@lemmy.world 0 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Quoting a phrase from an internal email out of context makes you seem disingenuous.

Source. Disingenuous is trying to claim the DNC chair was not biased

The emails that were stolen show people being mean,

Showing bias in positions of responsibility is not "being mean"

but it also shows that they were consistently not rigging anything.

Debate questions in advance.

6 heads in a row.

Obtuse financing rules.

Etc.

Or that the only time they talked about financial schemes was after the Sanders campaign alleged misconduct?

Bullshit. In 2015 in exchange for raising money and investing in the DNC, Hillary would control the party's finances, strategy, and all the money raised. Her campaign had the right of refusal of who would be the party communications director, and it would make final decisions on all the other staff.

She did. Eight years ago.

Yes. Because there was clear evidence of bias. Straight after, Debbie was rewarded with an honorary chair of the Clinton campaign’s 50-state program.

Turns out that preference without misconduct doesn't have much impact.

How are you sure there was no misconduct?

How are you sure there was no impact?

When their inexperience with the party tools led to them not taking advantage of them, they cried misconduct for the other campaigns knowing about them.

Or, because Hillary controled the party's finances, procedures were made deliberately obtuse to her advantage.

[–] ricecake@sh.itjust.works 1 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Do you think that source contradicts what I said?

Mr. Miranda asked Ms. Wasserman Schultz whether they should call CNN to complain about a segment the network aired in which Mr. Sanders said he would oust the chairwoman if he were elected. “Do you all think it’s worth highlighting for CNN that her term ends the day after the inauguration, when a new D.N.C. Chair is elected anyway?” Mr. Miranda asked. Ms. Wasserman Schultz responded by dismissing the senator’s chances. “This is a silly story,” she wrote. “He isn’t going to be president.”

Shocking. She didn't speak kindly of a person who publicly attacked her, and opted to leave the story alone instead of doing anything.

Same information, but cast with additional context

Most of the shocking things mentioned in the emails were only mentioned, and are then dismissed.

Your mistaking opinions and preference bias, which all people have, for unfair bias. Do you actually expect that the people who run a political party don't have an opinion about politics?

The coin thing didn't happen.. At best she won six out of a dozen, which is what you would expect. The reality is more complicated.

You grossly mischaracterize the agreement.
From the article:

This does not include any communications related to primary debates – which will be exclusively controlled by the DNC.

Nothing in this agreement shall be construed to violate the DNC's obligation of impartiality and neutrality through the Nominating process. All activities performed under this agreement will be focused exclusively on preparations for the General Election and not the Democratic Primary. Further we understand you may enter into similar agreements with other candidates.

HFA will be granted complete and seamless access to all research work product and tools (not including any research or tracking the DNC may engage in relating to other Democratic candidates).

In other words, her campaign agreed to give the DNC money to prepare for the general election, and in exchange they got to look at those preparations.
This was definitely the Clinton campaign assuming she would be the candidate, but it's not exactly a smoking gun for financial impropriety regarding the primary.

Honestly, if your campaign can't find a lawyer or accountant who can understand campaign finance management, you probably actually shouldn't be in charge of a country. The financial arrangements weren't particularly obtuse or obfuscated for moving millions of dollars between multiple political entities in multiple states.

[–] Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In@lemmy.world 0 points 4 months ago

Actions speak louder than words. Let's review what happened.

Wasserman Schultz resigned due to bias then immediately joined Clinton.

Guilty

The text of the question Brazile sent to the Clinton campaign was identical to a proposed question Martin had offered CNN

Guilty

Politico found that less than 1 percent of the $61 million raised by the Victory Fund has stayed in the state parties' coffers.

Guilty. Note that it's very easy to claim others didn't follow the rules when you are the ones writing them (possibly retroactively).