The goal isn’t to sway the fanatics, it’s to publicly quash their arguments. To sway curious onlookers away from fanaticism before they become fanatics themselves.

As I've said in another comment, this is return to Middle Ages. Debating skills have not much in common with reasoning skills.

[–] agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works 8 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

Nor are they mutually exclusive. A competent debater can intertwine rhetoric with logic to make a compelling argument for a well-reasoned position.

[–] rottingleaf@lemmy.zip -3 points 4 months ago (1 children)

For my argument it's sufficient that they are very much not the same.

This is similar to saying that a big company leading in some area can be benevolent and do good things. Yes, it can, like DEC, Sun, at some point even IBM. Doesn't prove the statement that every social institution and mechanism out there must be replaced by markets.

[–] agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works 6 points 4 months ago (1 children)

You're the only one making that argument, and it doesn't follow from my initial point. I'm not even really sure what point you're trying to make.

How does anything you're saying negate the fact that people make bad but persuasive points online, and gullible people fall for that persuasion? Or that those gullible people lack the entrenchment of the bad actors, and can be redirected from those bad points to better ones if persuasive arguments are presented directly in response to the bad ones?

[–] rottingleaf@lemmy.zip -3 points 4 months ago (1 children)

he goal isn’t to sway the fanatics, it’s to publicly quash their arguments. To sway curious onlookers away from fanaticism before they become fanatics themselves.

Friendly reminder that the above is what I answered first.

Sorry, but this is a load of bollocks. It's you putting yourself above some "gullible people" and still using debate skills to deceive them, just in some "good" direction. Maybe you are really right, but they believe you for the wrong reasons, and the process itself doesn't reinforce that you are right in any way.

[–] agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works 6 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

If they're already going to believe the wrong things for the wrong reasons, why not present the right things for the wrong reasons? Those who need the right reasons to change their mind are beyond the scope of this approach.

This is outreach to the gullible for harm reduction when they might otherwise filter themselves into a dangerous pipeline. This isn't using debate skills to deceive, it's using them to counter those who do use their debate skills to deceive. Even if the content may possibly be wrong, by presenting it in contrast to preceding content it necessarily widens the debate-space from an unopposed confident statement to a dialogue that the onlooker can take into consideration while making their own decision.

[–] rottingleaf@lemmy.zip -3 points 4 months ago (1 children)

it necessarily widens the debate-space from an unopposed confident statement to a dialogue that the onlooker can take into consideration while making their own decision.

That part would be right if we weren't talking about social media, which are designed to neuter this effect.

[–] agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works 5 points 4 months ago (1 children)

All the better to counter-act that neutralizing force at every potent opportunity.

[–] rottingleaf@lemmy.zip -3 points 4 months ago

That would be try to attract people outside of social media, not try to divert them inside social media where you'll waste energy