this post was submitted on 30 Jun 2023
39 points (97.6% liked)

Daystrom Institute

3470 readers
10 users here now

Welcome to Daystrom Institute!

Serious, in-depth discussion about Star Trek from both in-universe and real world perspectives.

Read more about how to comment at Daystrom.

Rules

1. Explain your reasoning

All threads and comments submitted to the Daystrom Institute must contain an explanation of the reasoning put forth.

2. No whinging, jokes, memes, and other shallow content.

This entire community has a “serious tag” on it. Shitposts are encouraged in Risa.

3. Be diplomatic.

Participate in a courteous, objective, and open-minded fashion. Be nice to other posters and the people who make Star Trek. Disagree respectfully and don’t gatekeep.

4. Assume good faith.

Assume good faith. Give other posters the benefit of the doubt, but report them if you genuinely believe they are trolling. Don’t whine about “politics.”

5. Tag spoilers.

Historically Daystrom has not had a spoiler policy, so you may encounter untagged spoilers here. Ultimately, avoiding online discussion until you are caught up is the only certain way to avoid spoilers.

6. Stay on-topic.

Threads must discuss Star Trek. Comments must discuss the topic raised in the original post.

Episode Guides

The /r/DaystromInstitute wiki held a number of popular Star Trek watch guides. We have rehosted them here:

founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
 

I want to live!

- EvilKirk's last words

Whatever else you want to say about EvilKirk, it's pretty clear that he didn't want to be merged back into the single Kirk. Despite this, there is no shortage of reasons why it was a good idea to merge the Kirks: the Enterprise needed its CO back, GoodKirk wanted to do it, and it seems possible that the strain of remaining split would have eventually killed EvilKirk anyways. However, the fact remains that EvilKirk did not consent to the procedure which ended his existence.

Clearly the circumstances here are quite different and there's basically no argument to be made that allowing EvilKirk to continue to exist would benefit any involved party, EvilKirk included. But for the purposes of this comparison, the only fact that really matters is that EvilKirk was just as passionate about his desire to continue existing as Tuvix was.

Yet—and it's obvious where I'm going with this—"Spock murdered EvilKirk" is not a meme.

So what gives? Did Spock murder EvilKirk or not? If yes, why does he get a pass while Janeway is condemned?

you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] Equals@startrek.website 21 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Yet—and it’s obvious where I’m going with this—“Spock murdered EvilKirk” is not a meme. ...[W]hy does he get a pass while Janeway is condemned?

I'm gonna cheat here a little bit. There are lots of things about the Tuvix debate that really are not about Tuvix; we've seen Tuvix elicit underlying opinions about everything from abortion to the trolley problem, and we've often seen thinly-veiled misogyny lurking beneath the surface as certain folks appear interested in finding any flaws in Captain Janeway they can.

So, yes, somewhat trivially, I think that Spock does not get condemned in part because he enjoys the luxury of not being targeted by misogynists. I think it's a small part, but surely a part.

I think the reason there aren't memes is because, well... "The Enemy Within" is an old episode, it never attracted attention through debate, and also it's a gross episode where EvilKirk straight up attempts to rape Yeoman Rand, and then Spock makes a joke (! Spock! A joke!) about it at the end of the episode. I'm sure it's an episode numerous folks have tried to forget. (I know I have.)

So, in terms of using the episode as a barometer to evaluate our own reactions to the two situations, I think there are overriding contextual factors that drown out any insight we might gain.

As an aside, I also think there is a pretty straightforward argument that EvilKirk (and GoodKirk, for that matter) was not mentally competent. He was, by definition, the remnants of an individual who had had a significant piece of their person torn away from them traumatically.

I think there's actually an odd but useful comparison to dementia here: dementia does cause some individuals to behave "out-of-character", immorally, or just meanly. If there were a "transporter reintegration" equivalent to treating dementia, and the patient said, "No, I want to stay like I am"... then I think probably the patient's wishes would be ignored.

Part of the reason "Tuvix" is hard is because, at least superficially, Tuvix appears mentally competent, so it's much harder to justify ignoring his wishes.

(As a second aside, one thing that always surprises me about the Tuvix Discourse™ is how little attention is paid to Tuvix being... well, somewhere between an asshole and a creep. He is incredibly manipulative toward Kes, preying on both her feelings for Neelix as well as her mentoring relationship with Tuvok. Neelix of course always was a bit possessive and jealous, but he at least was written "with a good heart"; I felt like Tuvix took those same qualities, but added a Tuvok-esque cold calculation to it. In any case, to me there's a mildly interesting parallel between these two episodes where there's this tone-deafness to the way the writers treat the behavior of the "transporter accident individual.")

[–] T156@lemmy.world 2 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

Part of the reason “Tuvix” is hard is because, at least superficially, Tuvix appears mentally competent, so it’s much harder to justify ignoring his wishes.

It also helps that both good and evil Kirk were slowly dying due to that traumatic separation, hence their need to be reintegrated before it was too late.

By comparison, Tuvix seemed stable, and there was no pressing need to have them be reintegrated before they both died. It seemed uncharacteristically spiteful to have him be forcefully dragged off to be separated with a risky procedure, whilst still begging for his life, with the only words Captain Janeway having about the situation being "sorry, I need my science officer back".