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this post was submitted on 21 Sep 2024
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Linux
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Linux is a family of open source Unix-like operating systems based on the Linux kernel, an operating system kernel first released on September 17, 1991 by Linus Torvalds. Linux is typically packaged in a Linux distribution (or distro for short).
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People need to chill with the language fanaticism. It’s one thing to make jokes and rip on a language for its quirks, but at the end of the day it’s just a language. If you truly don’t like it, don’t use it. I’m going to take a stab and guess that there is enough Linux kernel source to go around to both the c devs and rust devs. Just be glad they’re not trying to rewrite it in JavaScript. 😉
No, no. We're arguing for TypeScript
Not pure CSS?
Typescript is always compiled down to JavaScript, so it’s kinda the same thing, but with “nicer” clothes.
Same for C and Rust tho?
Rust does not compile down to C. It generates LLVM bytecode the same as Clang does. They both produce native executables. You do not need a C compiler on your system to run Rust binaries.
Typescript produces JavaScript. You need a JavaScript interpreter to execute the output from TypeScript.
Not the same thing.
In before the pedants: clang is a c compiler, in that it compiles c code—but it also compiles other languages too. The distinction is that c, c++, rust, etc are compiled directly into byte code , whereas typescript is transpiled into another language (JavaScript) before it is executed. I’ll probably catch heat for this, but you can liken TypeScript to C++ because they both are supersets of another language.
C++ is actually not a superset of C, believe it or not.
I’ll admit I’m no c/c++ aficionado, but after a little research I see what you mean. Originally, C++ was a superset of C, but C has since diverged to include things that are not in C++. So we are both correct.
The problem is that the Linux kernel is monolithic so introducing rust into it does have certain repercussions about downstream compatibility between modules.
Right now the rust code in the kernel uses c bindings for some things and there's a not-insignificant portion of C developers who both refuse to use rust and refuse to take responsibility if the code they write breaks something in the rust bindings.
If it was pure C there would be no excuse as the standard for Linux development is that you don't break downstream, but the current zeitgeist is that Rust being a different language means that the current C developers have no responsibility if their code refactoring now breaks the rust code.
It's a frankly ridiculous stance to take, considering the long history of Linux being very strict on not breaking downstream code.
Rust developers are fine with C bindings changing, they just want that to be communicated to them by the C developers before they break.
A valid point. But the result is that over a pretty short period of time. These C developers will find delays in how quickly their code gets accepted into stable branches etc. So will be forced to make clear documentation into how the refactoring effects other elements calling the code. Or move on altogether.
Sorta advantageous to all and a necessary way to proceed when others are using your code.
I agree.
I grew up in the age of c/c++ and then Java. I get it: people hate it and it’s time to move on, but jeez, folx, chill. It will happen in time, and there’s no reason to go all civil warsy about it.
Things like this should not be rushed.
A JavaScript VM in the kernel is inevitable.
No, a language is not just a language. I fact, it's a bunch of compilers. How many there are and the hardware they work on is what matters.
And as a matter of fact, rust isn't as much of an industry standard as C++ is.
I feel you’ve missed my entire point. My comment was not based on any technical merits of a language. It’s about a persons personal (religious) view of a tool they use to do their job.
I proudly use PHP, JavaScript, Java, Bash, and SQL. They have given me the means to make a long and fruitful 18+ year career. If my boss walked up to me tomorrow and said I needed to learn Python, or Rust, or even brainfuck, I’d learn it and be better for it.
Would it be as easy as my tried and true toolset? Not at first. I still remember the struggles I had when I was first learning my current toolset. It was frustrating. I remember cursing how stupid this or that was (especially PHP and JavaScript). But I learned, and now they’re not as frustrating — because I work with it, and not against it.
Look at JavaScript. Yeah it’s weird sometimes; if you don’t understand how it works. So people slap these transpiled languages or frameworks (like CoffeeScript or TypeScript or whatever) on top, trying to fix the things they think are wrong with JavaScript, and end up making a chaotic mess of the entire community. (And yes we could spend months arguing pros and cons of any merits of transpires and frameworks and why and what not, but then you’re still missing the point).
Anyway, the point is: if it works, then it’s good. Rust does not make Linux worse. If anything, it makes it better because it makes it more accessible to programmers who know Rust but not C. And that’s a good thing. It ensures the Linux kernel will be around longer than whomever ends up being the last C developer.
Those C developers bitching about how they don’t like the idea of rust in their kernel are akin to those old fogies yelling about those damned kids and their loud music or fashion sense.