this post was submitted on 11 Feb 2025
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[–] ayyy@sh.itjust.works 14 points 2 hours ago* (last edited 2 hours ago) (4 children)

Home solar indicates a massive management failure of public utilities. If it is more cost effective and more pleasant to generate your own electricity without any economies of scale, something is very wrong.

Source: I live in California where the “public” utility is an absolute disaster that charges $.60-$.70/kW/hr so anybody who can afford the upfront cost of solar has done so.

[–] fruitycoder@sh.itjust.works 5 points 2 hours ago (2 children)

Microgeneration makes way more sense to me. If you generate the power where it is used without pollution, we should. The unfortunate piece is we have to many landlords who's interest are too divorced from their tenets to put up more microgeneration

[–] Barsukis@sopuli.xyz 5 points 1 hour ago

Makes sense mathematically or you think makes sense?

[–] ayyy@sh.itjust.works 2 points 1 hour ago

These microinverters aren’t made of fairy dust. Doing this stuff at utility scale uses a lot less nasty minerals and chemicals.

[–] Bytemeister@lemmy.world 2 points 1 hour ago

Shoot, my electric is like $.0625/KWH

But there is also another 75-100 bucks tacked on as fees. Tempting to go solar and disconnect from the grid. Even without selling energy back to the grid, I would break even. (Savings over 20 years ~200 bucks)

[–] Gonzako@lemmy.world 3 points 2 hours ago

The rent seekers making everything worse again

[–] Cataphract@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 hours ago

I live in an area where there is a monopoly of power supply by one of the worse polluters in American history, in a small area within a county there's an existing co-op power company that was basically grandfathered in because it's been in existence for so long while no other competitors are allowed in the area.

That co-op when I lived in the area was about half the cost of the monopoly company, a relative gets actually paid to be a member because they received their fathers account when he passed away and extra funds are distributed among all the members based on how long they've been with them (a little weird, but at least better than shareholders getting the profit).

You are absolutely right that the electric companies as a whole have failed, they've been allowed to amass too much influence and coverage while squashing any kind of competition. Why electrical needs aren't considered a national resource is mind baffling to me. Our country and citizens way of life would literally grind to a halt without it.

[–] feedum_sneedson@lemmy.world -1 points 1 hour ago

"100 million smokers can't be wrong!"

[–] Zip2@feddit.uk 21 points 3 hours ago (1 children)

My dumb ass: “Is it just 1.5m Germans, or other heights too?”

[–] amon@lemmy.world 11 points 3 hours ago (2 children)

M in million should always be capitalised for this reason.

1.5M Germans vs 1.5m Germans

[–] rbos@lemmy.ca 11 points 2 hours ago

Megagermans vs milligermans

[–] calcopiritus@lemmy.world 1 points 1 hour ago

Until I read this comment I was 100% certain the post was about short Germans somehow preferring having their balconies occluded by taller-than-them solar panels.

[–] Valmond@lemmy.world 19 points 7 hours ago (1 children)

This is really nice! This is the future!

I'd love to know how much they produce, especially during the winter/monthly.

[–] Atelopus-zeteki@fedia.io 7 points 5 hours ago (2 children)

In the Northern hemisphere, in Winter the Sun is at a low angle, so vertically oriented panels might produce more. As an example, I have a sunroom and at Winter's Solstice the sunlight reaches about 3-4 meters into the room. At Summer's Solstice there is no direct sunlight in the room, as the Sun is overhead.

[–] Cataphract@lemmy.ml 3 points 2 hours ago

couple of things to note:

  1. Not every balcony is southern facing
  2. Most older European homes don't have A/C yet, so electrical costs are more during the winter months (that trend will change though I imagine)
  3. I think the numbers @Valmond@lemmy.world was asking about involved power output, that of course depends on the size of your array, daily/monthly/yearly differences in weather, and all sorts of little nuances that's hard to say without averaging out years worth of data.
[–] Valmond@lemmy.world 2 points 4 hours ago (1 children)

Do you have any numbers :-) ?

[–] Atelopus-zeteki@fedia.io 4 points 3 hours ago (1 children)

I have a sunroom, what sort of numbers are you asking for? It's a partly cloudy day, about 22C in the room, without heat. And about 7C outside.

[–] dufkm@lemmy.world 3 points 2 hours ago

Nice numbers <3

[–] Grandwolf319@sh.itjust.works 11 points 8 hours ago

Wait that’s a thing?

Holy shit that a thing!? That’s awesome!!

[–] Buffalox@lemmy.world 36 points 11 hours ago* (last edited 10 hours ago) (12 children)

“Plug-in solar is part of the whole array of options,”

I don't understand how this works? For our system we need an inverter that cost about $3000.- (half if it doesn't have to handle a battery), and it needs to be installed by an authorized electrician.
For a small system as the one shown, the price of panels are peanuts, the 2 panels shown should cost less than $150 combined. While the cost of inverter and getting it connected is way way higher. There's a lot more to this than not being on the roof!?! But which isn't disclosed.

The article says nothing about how the power from those panels is made usable.

[–] humanspiral@lemmy.ca 7 points 2 hours ago

Balcony solar is a set of diy technologies that require no utility permissions.

In Germany, NL, you can just plug it into socket and it works somehow.

In us you can use powerstations and also adapters that sync draw from battery as it charges from ac in house.

It pays for itself even with more expensive equipment, by not needed license, permission, that can lead to cheap efficient panels costing over 3$ per watt. Small systems that just offset use instead of selling back, have higher revenue offsets in high per kwh priced markets.

[–] Hugin@lemmy.world 10 points 6 hours ago (1 children)

There are two main inverter approaches. One big inverter that takes the DC from a bunch of panels and converts it into AC and micro inverters where each panel gets it's own small one placed directly under the panel.

The micro inverters cost around $150 each. So you need around 10 panels before the single inverter becomes a good choice.

Installers love the micro because the install is easier. However as a owner with say 30 panels you now have 30 points of possible failure instead of the 1.

[–] Buffalox@lemmy.world 2 points 2 hours ago

Oh boy, apparently there's a lot I don't know. It's really cool there are those cheaper options now.

[–] schnokobaer@feddit.org 51 points 10 hours ago (1 children)

The "balcony" bit isn't the defining characteristic, it shouldn't be taken literally. Some people do have their "balcony solar power" on their roofs.

What defines it is limitation to 800 W and inverters that come with a normal Euro Type F ("Schuko") plug and no legal requirement for professional installation. A layman can literally plug it in to an existing wall socket. Given that they are capped at 800 Watts, the inverters are also the simplest type and dirt cheap (although often they are literally just software-capped and identical to higher power ones, make of that what you will). Complete systems (2 panels, cabling, inverter) cost between 299€ and 800€ depending on quality. You genuinely only have to buy a fixture that suits your needs and a mate to help you install it.

Proper several-Kilowatt-systems are very expensive in Germany too.

[–] Buffalox@lemmy.world 19 points 10 hours ago* (last edited 9 hours ago) (2 children)

Thanks really good info. 👍😀

A layman can literally plug it in to an existing wall socket

That's amazing, I had no idea that is possible??? Is that special for Germany? (sorry for keeping on with new questions). 😋 I've never heard of that option here in Denmark.

cost between 299€ and 800€

No wonder it's a popular option, our system is of course bigger with 11.2 kWh and 7.5 kWh battery. but it was $17000 1½ year ago. Prices have dropped to $12500 for a similar system, but still such an 800W system is dirt cheap by comparison.

[–] schnokobaer@feddit.org 13 points 9 hours ago* (last edited 5 hours ago) (1 children)

I had no idea that is possible??? Is that special for Germany?

I mean, the regulation seems to be, but there's no fancy tech going on. I'm not an electrician but I think I can explain, as I have recently tried to understand myself. To understand why it's possible it's best to understand why the limit is at 800 W precisely.

So German wall outlets usually have a 16 A fuse and the wiring in the walls is dimensioned to accommodate slightly higher current (I think they are 2.5mm² gauge allowing up to 20 A but don't quote me on that particular part) for safety reasons. I suppose it would be the same or very similar in Denmark, or maybe most of Europe that uses 230V/50Hz AC.

Now, normally, if you have dangerously powerful load that would melt your wires, let's say 5 kW, and you plug it in to an outlet the fuse will just pop and you're safe. If however you have a 2 kW PV system connected to a wall outlet nearby, it would theoretically be possible that your 5 kW load draws 13 A (3 kW) from the mains through the fuse and another 8.7 A (2 kW) from the PV system over the same wire in the wall that is only rated at 20 A but now carries 21.7 A. And the fuse would never pop at 13 A, making it a huge fire hazard. 800 W is basically just what will always comfortably fit into the safety margin of the wiring in German houses. All systems above 800 W need to be hardwired by professionals "behind" the fuse box so that every Amp from your PV goes through a typical 16 A fuse.

still such an 800W system is dirt cheap by comparison

Absolutely. I guess the low threshold for installation allows some kind of mass market economy of scale whereas systems like yours are homeowners' luxury goods.

[–] Cocodapuf@lemmy.world 2 points 6 hours ago

Great post! Thanks for doing the math and explaining the concepts!

[–] Gerprimus@feddit.org 11 points 9 hours ago (2 children)

There are already a few requirements for operating the balcony panels, At least here in Germany:

  • You need a suitable electricity meter
  • You have to register with a relevant authority and inform the electricity provider that you are operating a “balcony power plant”.
  • The microconverter should run on its own secured circuit. (“Should”, will certainly do very few) But technically it is simple:
  1. Set up panels
  2. Connecting necessary plugs
  3. Microconverter to the socket
  4. Be happy that you produce up to 800 watts of your own electricity

I think it's almost irrelevant how many panels you ultimately split up. However, no more than 800 watts may be fed in.But if you have panels with, let's say, 2000 watts, you can of course charge various batteries with them beforehand. Nobody can say anything against it.

[–] Buffalox@lemmy.world 2 points 6 hours ago

You need a suitable electricity meter

That makes sense, we also needed new meter, and that was about €200.- with installation. Not a big deal for a big installation, but for a system that can cost only €300.- an extra 200.- would be pretty significant.

[–] DacoTaco@lemmy.world 3 points 7 hours ago

Just for your information : belgium is allowing the balcony solar panels this year, but they have put limits on which you can install. The power supplier needs to have approved the kit you install. This is just to prevent people from getting cheap crap from the internet.
Other than that, same rules!

[–] Valmond@lemmy.world 4 points 8 hours ago (1 children)

If you pay 3000€ for an inverter then that's probably included installing and whatnot. You can get a cheap 50€ 4kW inverter on aliexpress, or an expensive 500€ 10kW one.

[–] Buffalox@lemmy.world 6 points 6 hours ago (1 children)

No the price was not including installation, We have 11.2 kW panels and 7.5 kWh batteries. Installation was almost $5000.- !! That was probably mostly the 28 panels on the roof. But we had one installer handling everything, who was also responsible for the electrician.

[–] Valmond@lemmy.world 2 points 6 hours ago (1 children)

That's a massive installation though! Wow!

Also, you got a biig roof!

[–] Buffalox@lemmy.world 2 points 3 hours ago

When we bought the house, that was one of the parameters on our list for "the perfect house". So the roof to the garden is also almost perfectly towards the south. 😀
Even in January we've made 41% of our power consumption from the solar panels. 😎 You are right that it is a bit oversized according to "normal" recommendations which are 8 kWh for a house the size of ours, but we went a bit bigger in preparation for air to water heat pump, so warming the house will be electric, (currently wood pellets), and also we plan to buy an electric car within the next 2 years.

Also it was a bit for fun, because of the movie spinal tap, so our panels go to 11 instead of just 10, because we need that little bit extra. 😋

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[–] dahpu@feddit.org 84 points 13 hours ago (2 children)

For first few seconds, I deadass though they are talking about Germans with a height of 1,5 meters.

[–] Cocodapuf@lemmy.world 4 points 6 hours ago* (last edited 6 hours ago)

That was me.

So why won't taller Germans get solar? I don't even see the connection to height... Oh, maybe they hit their heads on the panels? No, that doesn't seem likely... I don't get it.

[–] Gormadt@lemmy.blahaj.zone 41 points 12 hours ago* (last edited 12 hours ago) (1 children)

Only Germans this high have balcony solar

[–] taladar@sh.itjust.works 20 points 11 hours ago

Makes sense, taller Germans throw too much of a shadow to make the solar worth it.

[–] sirico@feddit.uk 39 points 12 hours ago (1 children)

In b4 nimbys complain it's an eyesore despite most people never looking up

[–] freebee@sh.itjust.works 4 points 3 hours ago

Usually not uglier than the balcony itself.

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