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submitted 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) by Neptium@lemmygrad.ml to c/islamicleft@lemmygrad.ml

I was debating whether to insert this within LGBT+ or Islamic Leftism but I do think ultimately it might fit here better because it covers the specific experience of French indigènes, which makes it more relevant here.

I feel like in these sort of online Islamic “progressive” spaces, there’s no genuine discussions happening. These spaces are often almost defensive in nature - like the existence of this community is just to prove to disapproving whites that Islam isn’t this, or isn’t that. This is a result of being in a Western dominated space in general.

Gender and sexual minorities is a very important phenomenon that must require a response, yet it is almost ignored or never spoken about because this muslim-homophobia dichotomy is so engrained that people are (rightfully) scared to even talk about it, especially across the White left.

I’d of course invite everyone to treat this article critically, and contribute if you have any qualms against their conclusions, although I will admit my opinions have slowly drifted closer to the article as the years went by.

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[-] ComradeSalad@lemmygrad.ml 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

“The goal is therefore to convince non-Whites that they must identify as homosexual. This is the choice offered by hegemonic homosexual activism”

Source: “I pulled it out of my ass.” This is literally the fascist claim that the LGBT are forcing everyone and particularly children to be gay.

“In this respect, it is interesting to see how the defenders of a “universal” homosexual identity impose the frame of analysis at the heart of their campaigns to « save » the homos in working-class neighbourhoods.”

“An association that houses victims of homophobia” – says that there are not “fewer homos” in these neighbourhoods but that they are “more hidden and in denial.”

Why is this said like this is absurd or a bad thing???? That is objectively true, and the author acts like it’s some secretive plot to destroy the immigrant community by turning them all gay. And not that there are, you know, LGBT people already there, but terrified to come out because of the reaction they would garner. Like from this person for example, who would claim that them being gay is a “capitulation to white imperialism”.

“I am part of this “productive regression” since I am resolutely on their side of the racial divide. That’s why I will reject categorically any attempt to place Civitas and the Union of Islamic Organizations of France [UOIF]”

Oh no no no, you don’t get to eat your cake and have it too. There’s a reason those two organizations coincidentally appear on the same side when it comes to traditionalist and anti-LGBT action/rhetoric. You can’t just say offhandedly that it’s not what it looks like and that’s it’s actually ok when we do it because insert post hoc justifications for homophobia.

What a disgusting and reactionary conclusion. The author makes several interesting and good points in the beginning, then they do a heel turn and devolve rapidly into absurd levels of homophobia, which they try to justify as being “anti-imperialist”. They go completely mask off when talking about how they will sacrifice their allies on the left to defend their stance, then make it seem like modern homosexuality is an entirely white phenomenon, completely ignoring other Muslims who are LGBT.

I am extremely alarmed at your addition too, “although I will admit my opinions have slowly drifted closer to the article as the years went by”.

[-] WaterBowlSlime@lemmygrad.ml 0 points 1 year ago

I dunno about the parts regarding French politics but I think the point they're trying to make is that our ideas about sexuality do not apply to every culture. And that foreign attempts to "liberate gay people" are often as misguided as historic attempts to "civilize the natives".

Like, consider what it means to "be gay". First, you need to think about gender such that everyone has it, and has only 1 kind. Then you need to make distinctions between attraction towards different genders. Then you need to draw discrete lines between those categories. And where are those lines? Is it about kissing? Or just having thoughts? Or having sex? Is dating enough? If it is then what qualifies as dating?

Different cultures have wildly different frameworks for all of this and what they're saying is that in order to save "gay people" you need to create "gay people" as a concept. And that we should be very careful with how we approach social issues because we can provoke a negative backlash when we impose ourselves.

I think we should be mindful of how our beliefs about gender and sexuality are informed by our history and that people with different histories think differently.

this post was submitted on 04 Jul 2023
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Islamic Leftism

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