this post was submitted on 01 Dec 2023
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[–] Gradually_Adjusting@lemmy.world 129 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (4 children)

Journalism is when you leave a few dots unconnected for the reader as a fun little puzzle.

Netanyahu didn't just let the attacks happen, we also know he funded Hamas, and has wanted the attack to use as casus belli so he could do some fucked up war crimes of his own. Netanyahu is a far right extremists who has been paying some fucked up laws, like using live ammo on protestors. He's a fascist, plain and simple.

Edit: I'm gonna leave these typos in place, just let it be known I wrote this with sleep still in my eyes.

[–] gigachad@feddit.de 39 points 11 months ago (2 children)

The few dots you refer to sound like the "speculation part" which I am very thankful is not included in the article. The news itself is disturbing, but your theory sounds very much like conspiracy theory. However I am open to be proved wrong, as I am not that much into israeli politics.

[–] shadysus@lemmy.ca 40 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (2 children)

The "funding" was confirmed by him from a past speech. Funding is in quotes because it wasn't all direct funding, and that particular speech was about him signing off on a transfer of funds from someone else to Hamas. But the underlying motivation is still accurate because... that's what he said the reason was. He said he wanted Hamas to have more funding so they would rise in power and keep the people divided.

The rest of it is stuff that can never be proved in favor or against unless you can read minds. However, it seems more than likely if you take into account the wider history of him, his party, and the region.

On the other side of this you have years of massive protests within Israel by Israeli citizens, and ongoing criminal and corruption charges against him and his associates within Israel.

A violent war would help him, and that's not a conspiracy

[–] Fitik@fedia.io 13 points 11 months ago (1 children)

It haven't tho, he presented himself in Israel as "mister security" and 7th of October only ruined his ratings to the ground, just look at the opinion polls

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_Israeli_legislative_election

[–] Kidplayer_666@lemm.ee 11 points 11 months ago

Around half the people in Israel want Netanyahu beheaded. The other half would rather have him shot

[–] JohnDClay@sh.itjust.works 6 points 11 months ago

You mind linking the speech or copying the relevant part? That sounds very intriguing and I'd love to see what wording he used.

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[–] interceder270@lemmy.world 8 points 11 months ago (2 children)

Journalism is when you leave a few dots unconnected for the reader as a fun little puzzle.

I just wanna say, no. Journalism is presenting the objective facts and letting the audience decide for themselves how to react.

[–] Freylint@lemm.ee 2 points 11 months ago

It's it really that hard to believe that members of the ruling class would conspire to enact their own will and interest?

History is spotted with blood spilled by consequence of rulers doing exactly this.

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[–] homoludens@feddit.de 8 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Netanyahu didn’t just let the attacks happen, we also know he funded Hamas

Can we have a source for that?

[–] NoneOfUrBusiness@kbin.social 16 points 11 months ago (2 children)
[–] homoludens@feddit.de 28 points 11 months ago (2 children)

Thanks. So Israel handed out work permits and "allowed suitcases holding millions in Qatari cash to enter Gaza through its crossings since 2018, in order to maintain its fragile ceasefire with the Hamas".

That's sounds a bit different from "Netanyahu didn’t just let the attacks happen, we also know he funded Hamas, and has wanted the attack to use as casus belli so he could do some fucked up war crimes of his own."

I'm not denying that he's employing a "divide and conquer" strategy, that a lot of his doing is making the conflict worse, that's he's using the opportunity to do a lot of damage etc. But it's not that he funded Hamas because he wanted the attack to happen (at least the article doesn't prove that).

[–] NoneOfUrBusiness@kbin.social 14 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

It's not that he wanted this particular attack to happen (this article doesn't prove that, as you said). It's that he's been allowing Qatari money to flow into Gaza, knowing full well it's Hamas getting it. As for the fact that Netanyahu wanted to do warcrimes... Well just look at what he and his cabinet say.

[–] Gradually_Adjusting@lemmy.world 10 points 11 months ago (2 children)

Funded versus allowed, I oversimplified maybe but to a statesman it amounts to the same thing imo.

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[–] Maggoty@lemmy.world 3 points 11 months ago

You can't ever prove that last part. But knowing he had the intelligence and still moved troops away is pretty indicative of a decision that the Israelis in those towns were expendable.

[–] Endorkend@kbin.social 5 points 11 months ago

It's interesting to me that that has to be repeated so often. It's really not a little known fact.

[–] jabjoe@feddit.uk 1 points 11 months ago (1 children)

I guess there is the old "never assign to malice what can be adequately be explained by stupidity" to consider.

[–] Gradually_Adjusting@lemmy.world 5 points 11 months ago (1 children)
[–] jabjoe@feddit.uk 1 points 11 months ago (1 children)

I'd say never rule out just stupid. Even when you try and make something idiot proof, nature just invents a better idiot. Conspiracies are hard to hold together as people are leaky. I find easier to believe in mass stupidity than mass conspiracies.

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[–] HuddaBudda@kbin.social 59 points 11 months ago (5 children)

The approximately 40-page document, which the Israeli authorities code-named “Jericho Wall,” outlined, point by point, exactly the kind of devastating invasion that led to the deaths of about 1,200 people.

Then, in July, just three months before the attacks, a veteran analyst with Unit 8200, Israel’s signals intelligence agency, warned that Hamas had conducted an intense, daylong training exercise that appeared similar to what was outlined in the blueprint.

“I utterly refute that the scenario is imaginary,” the analyst wrote in the email exchanges. The Hamas training exercise, she said, fully matched “the content of Jericho Wall.”

So they did know. They even knew the plan of attack and still did nothing.

At best case, the officials in intelligence that made that call should be fired for incompetence. At worst case, for letting it happen.

[–] agent_flounder@lemmy.world 26 points 11 months ago (2 children)

Top leadership was probably looking for an excuse to enact genocide, frankly.

[–] interceder270@lemmy.world 15 points 11 months ago

That's what it looks like from here.

Sad, that would make the Israeli military just as responsible for the attack as Hamas.

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[–] Maggoty@lemmy.world 17 points 11 months ago

It ran all the way up the chain the first time. Then orders came down to move troops away and into the West Bank. How much more explicit does it need to be? At the very least Netanyahu sacrificed his own people. Even without getting into false flag conspiracies.

[–] isles@lemmy.world 4 points 11 months ago

At worst case, for letting it happen.

I think really at worst case is causing it to happen.

[–] samokosik@lemmynsfw.com 1 points 11 months ago

What I meant is whether you know a source where I can check the exact document. Or at least see in Arabic. So regular people can compare it, as well.

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[–] Shurimal@kbin.social 25 points 11 months ago (2 children)

The very day Hamas attack happened I suspected that there's no way Israel's intelligence orgs, some of the best in the world, did not know about the plan for the attack way before it happened. This whole affair stinks to the high heavens.

[–] shadysus@lemmy.ca 32 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

Even if it wasn't intentional

  • he directly stated in a speech that he approved funding transfer to Hamas to help them grow in power to keep the people divided

  • they moved soldiers away from the border to the west bank to help with settlements

  • as this article suggests, they had a lot of warnings

Those 3 points alone should be enough to send him and his party away, and until that happens (and until Hamas is also removed from power), that region won't see peace.

We need to let the legal system do its job, and for both Likud & Hamas to be removed from power through LEGAL MEANS by the people they say they represent.

[–] NoneOfUrBusiness@kbin.social 2 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (4 children)

Those 3 points alone should be enough to send him and his party away, and until that happens (and until Hamas is also removed from power), that region won’t see peace.

About your Hamas part, Hamas has historically participated in ceasefire agreements in good faith. It's Israel who doesn't (hell they didn't completely follow the current agreement). Why I'm saying this is that the "and Hamas is also removed from power" part is basically Israeli propaganda, because it makes it seem like even if Israel tries to make peace with Palestinians it won't happen until Hamas is removed (likely by force), which makes things like this current war easier to swallow.

[–] nonailsleft@lemm.ee 9 points 11 months ago (1 children)

You must be new to the planet if you believe Hamas will ever settle for a two state solution

[–] NoneOfUrBusiness@kbin.social 2 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

Y'all seem to forget that Hamas is the weaker side here. If Gazans get something they can accept Hamas won't be able to refuse. Also historically they've been cooperative with Israeli peace efforts.

[–] Maggoty@lemmy.world 4 points 11 months ago

I'm sorry we're not allowed to have actual facts here. Only rhetoric. Israel is completely justified in it's genocide because there's a single Palestinian with a fantasy of doing it to Jews.

[–] shadysus@lemmy.ca 7 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

Sorry, I will highlight the important bit

Removed from power through legal means, by the people they state they represent. Removing either group with violence will beget more violence. A new entity with the same ideology will fill the gap.

Hamas as an organization has its own problems, and they share a lot of the same issues as Likud. They both hold on to power through violence and fear.

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[–] samokosik@lemmynsfw.com 1 points 11 months ago (1 children)

I agree that if these documents were released a year ago, it was a terrible decision made by the government.

But at the same time, Hamas has never had a good faith. Ofc, if you don’t consider killing all Jews a good faith.

[–] NoneOfUrBusiness@kbin.social 2 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Hamas has never had a good faith.

That's not what the word "good faith" means.

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[–] Fitik@fedia.io 1 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (3 children)

Hamas has historically participated in ceasefire agreements in good faith.

Not in the last years that come in my mind, It was Islamic Jihad in 2022 but they couldn't do without Hamas allowing them to. Every single time it was games who started escalation, even if they've claimed that it was "defending of Al Aqsa" or something similar

hell they didn't completely follow the current agreement

Yes, Israel have, they haven't attacked and released prisoners they should've and allowed trucks with humanitarian aid, while Hamas carried a terror attack in Jerusalem (yesterday)

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[–] scarabic@lemmy.world 2 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

I’m not expressing any opinion one way or the other on this instance, but I think we might want to keep in mind that with hindsight, predictive signals can always be pointed to. It says Israeli authorities heard of the plan but didn’t consider the plan plausible. How many plans do they discard as implausible? Is this something they do 5 times a day, where they were 100% correct until this day, when they were only 4/5 correct? I think it would take a lot of knowledge about intelligence work and these particular reports to really decide if a gross mistake was made or worse, there’s complicity.

I’m not excusing Israel or making claims one way or the other. But I recall this with 9/11 and other episodes too: with hindsight we can always find signals that were there but didn’t get the attention they needed. This doesn’t always signal wilfull negligence.

[–] kandoh@reddthat.com 15 points 11 months ago (1 children)

If this is true then they really fucked up and it bit them in the ass.

Judicial reforms = dead after Oct 7th

Approval rating = in the toilet, unlikely to win next election

It is a bad outcome for Bibi and he's never really had much interest in Gaza till now.

I think they honestly were too distracted with keeping themselves in power with their judicial reforms. They got warnings but those seemed vague compared to the threat of corruption charges they were personally facing. They fucked up.

[–] interceder270@lemmy.world 5 points 11 months ago (2 children)

I mean, it's a good outcome because they can bomb the hell out of Gaza.

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[–] danekrae@lemmy.world 8 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

Well at least one of Israels ministers have called Hamas an asset, so it doesn't surprise me.

https://youtu.be/pJ9PKQbkJv8?feature=shared&t=1160

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[–] Why9@lemmy.world 4 points 11 months ago
[–] autotldr@lemmings.world 4 points 11 months ago

This is the best summary I could come up with:


The translated document, which was reviewed by The New York Times, did not set a date for the attack, but described a methodical assault designed to overwhelm the fortifications around the Gaza Strip, take over Israeli cities and storm key military bases, including a division headquarters.

The document called for a barrage of rockets at the outset of the attack, drones to knock out the security cameras and automated machine guns along the border, and gunmen to pour into Israel en masse in paragliders, on motorcycles and on foot — all of which happened on Oct. 7.

Then, in July, just three months before the attacks, a veteran analyst with Unit 8200, Israel’s signals intelligence agency, warned that Hamas had conducted an intense, daylong training exercise that appeared similar to what was outlined in the blueprint.

The Jericho Wall document lays bare a yearslong cascade of missteps that culminated in what officials now regard as the worst Israeli intelligence failure since the surprise attack that led to the Arab-Israeli war of 1973.

It detailed rocket attacks to distract Israeli soldiers and send them hurrying into bunkers, and drones to disable the elaborate security measures along the border fence separating Israel and Gaza.

During the exercise, Hamas fighters used the same phrase from the Quran that appeared at the top of the Jericho Wall attack plan, she wrote in the email exchanges viewed by The Times.


The original article contains 1,582 words, the summary contains 235 words. Saved 85%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!

[–] samokosik@lemmynsfw.com 2 points 11 months ago

Have those documents been released or have the quotes been recorded somewhere?

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