this post was submitted on 01 Jan 2024
96 points (100.0% liked)

theory

652 readers
12 users here now

A community for in-depth discussion of books, posts that are better suited for !literature@www.hexbear.net will be removed.

The hexbear rules against sectarian posts or comments will be strictly enforced here.

founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
 

We are reading Volumes 1, 2, and 3 in one year. This will repeat yearly until communism is achieved. (Volume IV, often published under the title Theories of Surplus Value, will not be included, but comrades are welcome to set up other bookclubs.) This works out to about 6½ pages a day for a year, 46 pages a week.

I'll post the readings at the start of each week and @mention anybody interested.

Week 1, Jan 1-7, we are reading Volume 1, Chapter 1 'The Commodity'

Discuss the week's reading in the comments.

Use any translation/edition you like. Marxists.org has the Moore and Aveling translation in various file formats including epub and PDF: https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/

Ben Fowkes translation, PDF: http://libgen.is/book/index.php?md5=9C4A100BD61BB2DB9BE26773E4DBC5D

AernaLingus says: I noticed that the linked copy of the Fowkes translation doesn't have bookmarks, so I took the liberty of adding them myself. You can either download my version with the bookmarks added, or if you're a bit paranoid (can't blame ya) and don't mind some light command line work you can use the same simple script that I did with my formatted plaintext bookmarks to take the PDF from libgen and add the bookmarks yourself.


Resources

(These are not expected reading, these are here to help you if you so choose)


@invalidusernamelol@hexbear.net @Othello@hexbear.net @Pluto@hexbear.net @Lerios@hexbear.net @ComradeRat@hexbear.net @heartheartbreak@hexbear.net @Hohsia@hexbear.net @Kolibri@hexbear.net @star_wraith@hexbear.net @commiewithoutorgans@hexbear.net @Snackuleata@hexbear.net @TovarishTomato@hexbear.net @Erika3sis@hexbear.net @quarrk@hexbear.net @Parsani@hexbear.net @oscardejarjayes@hexbear.net @Beaver@hexbear.net @NoLeftLeftWhereILive@hexbear.net @LaBellaLotta@hexbear.net @professionalduster@hexbear.net @GaveUp@hexbear.net @Dirt_Owl@hexbear.net @Sasuke@hexbear.net @wheresmysurplusvalue@hexbear.net @seeking_perhaps@hexbear.net @boiledfrog@hexbear.net @gaust@hexbear.net @Wertheimer@hexbear.net @666PeaceKeepaGirl@hexbear.net @BountifulEggnog@hexbear.net @PerryBot4000@hexbear.net @PaulSmackage@hexbear.net @420blazeit69@hexbear.net @hexaflexagonbear@hexbear.net @glingorfel@hexbear.net @Palacegalleryratio@hexbear.net @ImOnADiet@lemmygrad.ml @RedWizard@lemmygrad.ml @joaomarrom@hexbear.net @HeavenAndEarth@hexbear.net @impartial_fanboy@hexbear.net @bubbalu@hexbear.net @equinox@hexbear.net @SummerIsTooWarm@hexbear.net @Awoo@hexbear.net @DamarcusArt@lemmygrad.ml @SeventyTwoTrillion@hexbear.net @YearOfTheCommieDesktop@hexbear.net @asnailchosenatrandom@hexbear.net @Stpetergriffonsberg@hexbear.net @Melonius@hexbear.net @Jobasha@hexbear.net @ape@hexbear.net @Maoo@hexbear.net @Professional_Lurker@hexbear.net @featured@hexbear.net @IceWallowCum@hexbear.net @Doubledee@hexbear.net

(page 3) 50 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] Stoatmilk@hexbear.net 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I had forgotten that Chapter 1 Section 3 is the worst thing ever written

[–] Vampire@hexbear.net 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

How is everycomrade getting along? It's Friday, so you should be about 72% complete. Is the pace too fast or too slow?

[–] quarrk@hexbear.net 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I’m wondering if it would be better next time to split chapter 1, but then again, if we dwell too long on this abstract value-form stuff, people are gonna get bored. So overall I think the pace is fine, but I’m curious what others think.

What are you thinking for next week? Just chapter 2 for a breather and some time to ponder chapter 1? Or maybe get a head start on chapter 3? I think 3 will need to be split in any case.

[–] Vampire@hexbear.net 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I was thinking Chapter 2 but assigning it for Mon-Wed rather than for the week. Then posting the next reading on Thursday.

What do you think? We can't take breathers all the time.

[–] quarrk@hexbear.net 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

Hmmm idk! I think a consistent weekly cadence would be the best, since people have different schedules IRL and probably don’t linearly read the same amount each day of the week. For example some people might not get much time to read on weekdays. Announcing the planned reading for the next week’s thread, in addition to the current week’s reading, could be good for the same reason. So if you go with that, then maybe we end up dipping into chapter 3 a little too, to even out the pages.

[–] Vampire@hexbear.net 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

If we do it that way, the stopping-point for Week 2 would be the heading 'Section 3: Money': https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ch03.htm#S3

That keeps the steady pace of 46-47 pages (of the Penguin edition) per week.

[–] Parsani@hexbear.net 6 points 1 year ago

Having it turn over on the weekends is likely the best idea so people who were too busy to read during the week can catch up and discuss.

For next week, chapter two is pretty short so adding in the first two sections of chapter 3 like you suggest could keep up the pace while still giving people the weekend to discuss.

[–] Vampire@hexbear.net 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Anyone else want to chime in?

[–] ComradeRat@hexbear.net 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I'm doing fine (finished reading the chapter) but as quarrk mentioned the readings be announced more in advance would be helpful.

[–] Vampire@hexbear.net 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Ok well next week is chap2 and the first two sections of chap3 :)

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] Stpetergriffonsberg@hexbear.net 6 points 1 year ago (2 children)

"Use values cannot confront each other as commodities, unless the useful labour embodied in them is qualitatively different in each of them."

Is there any use in thinking about commodities with overlapping use values, (like gold and silver) as in the same category but with different qualities? Or should I just think about them as different commodities all together? Does it even matter either way?

[–] quarrk@hexbear.net 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Gold and silver are qualitatively different and that's that. They require different amounts of labor to produce (and perhaps method, idk) and they have different uses. For example, the James Webb space telescope has gold-plated mirrors — silver has different chemical properties and would not satisfy the same function.

Whether something is a use value, or is not, is determined by whether it is consumed and therefore reproduced with regularity by an established industry.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] Parsani@hexbear.net 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

The way I understand the way Marx is using "qualitatively different" is both in its obvious form, gold and silver (as simple commodities) are different from one another, but importantly that it is about qualitatively different forms of private labor confronting each other in exchange. If I am spinning, weaving and tailoring my own coat, neither the wool, thread, linen, or coat confront each other as commodities in exchange even if they each have a use-value, but once you have a division of labour, those use-values can confront each other as commodities in exchange.

(I'm struggling to word a more specific example when considering gold and silver as commodity-money, so may be someone can jump in with that.)

The rest of the quote you posted seems to get into this.

In a society whose products generally assume the form of commodities, i.e. in a society of commodity producers, this qualitative difference between the useful forms of labour which are carried on independently and privately by individual producers develops into a complex system, a social division of labour.

and another in the paragraph before:

“The totality of heterogeneous use-values or physical commodities reflects a totality of similarly heterogeneous forms of useful labour, which differ in order, genus, species and variety: in short, a social division of labour. This division of labour is a necessary condition for commodity production, although the converse does not hold; commodity production is not a necessary condition for the social division of labour. [...] to take an example nearer home, labour is systematically divided in every factory, but the workers do not bring about this division by exchanging their individual products. Only the products of mutually independent acts of labour, performed in isolation, can confront each other as commodities.” p 132 (Fowkes)

This last part is interesting to me when you think about how large firms operate even today. If a single firm produces multiple of its own inputs and outputs, they do not actually confront eachother as commodities (in a market). As an aside, one of the more compelling arguments against the ECP has been its own critics inability to determine exactly where it becomes impossible to calculate production as one firm gobbles up another firm which produces its own input.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] Vampire@hexbear.net 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Alright, finished the reading on Saturday afternoon. I read some Prefaces as well, so had extra to

I think this is a good pace. We just keep plodding til the end of the year.

If you've made it this far you are 2.18% of the way through the 3-volume work, and 5.5% of the way through Volume 1.


Marx repeats himself a lot to drive home the point. The chapter is really simple enough, the ideas in it are simple but my word he does go on. The idea is that

                             LABOUR                            COMMODITY
 Abstract & quantitative:  'Socially-necessary labour time'    Value 
 Specific & qualitative:    Weaving, roofing, whatever         Use-value

Commodities can be exchanged for each other at equivalent values. Same socially-necessary labour time: same value. That's simple.

[–] keepcarrot@hexbear.net 5 points 1 year ago (4 children)

When I state that coats or boots stand in a relation to linen, because it is the universal incarnation of abstract human labor, the absurdity of the statement is self-evident. Nevertheless, when the producers of coats and boots compare those articles with linen, or, what is the same thing with gold or silver, as the universal equivalent, they express the relation between their own private labor and the collective labor of society in the same absurd form.

<.<

Am I right in thinking he's describing what "producers" are doing to society and how they're implicitly framing commodity relationships in liberal society? I know LVT was more popular amongst lib economists back then

load more comments (4 replies)
[–] Bioho@hexbear.net 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

This a channel I found last year while going through Capital, www.youtube.com/@DissidentTheory/. I think it might be useful for some people.

load more comments
view more: ‹ prev next ›