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I will take blasphemy, it's terrible but at least I can see it...
...allowing women to preach is hate speech though? Not the other way around??
'Hate speech' is entirely defined by the government's opinion on issues.
That cleric seems like a pretty cool Muslim dude. I hope the damn Islamists won´t murder the poor guy.
I did not know this, Indonesia is the world's largest muslim majority country? Time for another deep dive.
You want a real bad one? Read into what Indonesia is doing (with tacit support and direct arming from the west) to the Papuans
No thanks, I already suffer from depression
Looks like the papuans are fighting against the corrupt gov, but it says the US aided Indonesia until '92?
I don't know anything about this conflict, thanks
Excellent documentary about the legacy of violence in Indonesia https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2375605/?ref_=ext_shr
Oh I watched that, that's actually the first time I learned anything about indonesia, that there was a coup by gangsters. What a startling and troubling doc. And that crazy scene at the end where one of the guys starts to crack while they're making a doc of their crimes? Yeawow.
Yes, Indonesia has been the world's largest muslim country for well over a decade.
EDIT
Thank you, Sporcle
It’s got a fascinating history, over 300 million Muslims and also home to over 300 religions. They have a long history of coexistence.
Islam spread to indonesia by trade and missionaries. They outnumber Arabs but still many people falsely assume all Muslims are Arab.
300 million Muslims? I still haven't made it to Indonesia, I usually do my research on site when I travel. By "They outnumber Arabs", do you mean that the 300 million Muslims in Indonesia number all Arab Muslims? Aren't there like a billion?
Only 10% of Muslims are Arab, and there’s nearly 2 billion Muslims worldwide. It’s a common misconception.
Wow. Okay. So Islam started in the Middle East... I've never studied the demographics, so I'm just trying to put this together now with Indonesia being the largest majority Muslim country, so Islam started in the middle east but then it just exploded and it's everywhere sort of distributed equally around the world?
Did that happen with other major religions? Cuz with Christianity, we have Italy, Europe, US, and then with Judaism we have Israel, Western Europe, US.
But with Judaism and Christianity the largest proportion of followers still follow a track from the area where the religion started, right?
Is that the same with Islam?
Well the Middle East has one of the highest concentrations of Muslims in the world (Saudi Arabia is 90% Muslim) but most Muslims are outside the Middle East, in Asia and Africa. (China has twice as many Muslims as Saudi.) The religion grew mainly through trade and missionaries.
That's really interesting. I guess I just didn't realize until now that the population of Indonesia was almost 8 times the size of Saudi Arabia. The more you know.
Muhammad forbid that women gain equal standing with men in the Muslim world...Christ forbid that women gain equal standing in the Christian world....Yeshua forbid that women gain equal standing in the Jewish world...
I'm sensing a pattern here...
My knowledge on the bible is not too detailed, but could I ask, where Christ forbade the equal standing of women? If I remember right he said to the women they are not less than men, and even let them travel with him. I could be wrong tho.
That was less Jesus, and more Paul. Parl had some serious issues with women that he baked into Christianity. Jesus seemed pretty cool with women.
He was cool about women, but still travelled with 12 dudes. The 4 gospels set up the mythology and philosophy. The letters from Paul set the rules. The later books just went wild.
Ah yes, the famous, not here to preach the love and care for each other god taught us but the rules of humans
☕
Islam is evil.
This is a comment about the philosophy. This is not about the human followers, hence neither hate speech nor bigotry.
Curious whether this survives.
Almost all religion is evil. Some are worse than others.
Seems many people are misunderstanding the issue and bashing the religion. Islam allows women to be imams (leaders of congregations and prayers) but like conservative Judaism they can only lead groups of women in prayer. Mixed prayers of men and women are led by men.
Yeah okay, I read that as segregation based on gender.
FYI women are the ones asking for a woman-only imam.
Seems strange (understatement) to block them entirely from leading mixed gender groups. Why not give them the option to lead mixed groups if they want, or if they want a women-only group they can lead that as well?
To be clear, i'm against the sexism in the bible and any other religion as well
You may want to ask the islam sublemmy for a longer explanation, but the idea is that people should focus on their prayer and not get distracted staring at the opposite gender. That’s why Muslim men and women form two groups when they pray; women don’t want men ogling as they bend over etc. You see the same in conservative and orthodox synagogues; men and women sit on different sides. It’s a practical consideration.
Where do I find the religious side of lemmy? I always find people talking about religious culture super interesting, even though I'm far from religious.
A lot of subreddits are still copying over to Lemmy although they’re not as big as the originals yet. For example /r/islam has 100k members but !islam@lemmy.world is very small so far.
But men can lead mixed sessions?
Someone has to be responsible, but he is standing in front leading the prayer with his back to the congregation.
And a woman couldn't stand in front and face away?
And have the men watch her bend way over in rukoo during Salaat? No.
and having the women and/or gay men and/or other people attracted to men watching men bend way over in rukoo during Salaat isn't an issue?
You could raise an argument about anything, but this is about practicality since you still need to pray and minimizing as much distraction as you can.
You must be unfamiliar with the clothing women usually wear when praying. Its large, draping and for a pervert there is nothing to see.
If the concern really was men looking, Muhammad could have easily mandated women wear clothing that is appropriate for going for the sujood and rukhu instead of completely banning women becoming Imams for or being in mixed gender prayer.
Another simple solution is to have a screen upto the female imam's hips for when she bows down and prostrates, if we insist on the jamaah not having mixed gender.
Ah, another one of those people who talks down to me about my own religion.
Go ahead and show me this mythical clothing you imagined up that is appropriate for sujood and rukoo and isn’t expensive. Muslims can pray anywhere and everywhere and now you’re talking about carrying around some kind of screen? Come on.
I'm an exmuslims so I have just as much exposure to Islam and muslim societies as you do.
The clothing I had in mind is a prayer gown called a "telekung" and its used by women in south-east asia. Sort of like an abaya but the headwear is long and goes below the hips. From what Ive seen of mixed gender prayers, many women wrap clothing around their hips to have the same effect for when they bow down.
Wat do women wear when they pray where you live that has you thinking it would be inappropriate if they lead?
If you can't handle being around the opposite gender, that's a you problem.
Nobody is claiming that but thanks for the strawman.
That is deceptive because the origin of the ruling is written by male jurists (living with the ideas of gender from their time, a millenia ago).
It is opposed even when muslim men and women choose to have women lead, so the choice only matters when it conforms to the already held view.
Women aren't allowed to lead men in prayer but men are allowed to lead women in prayer. I love how male Muslim apologists use their own lack of personal responsibility to justify the systematic disenfranchisement of women the same way Roman Catholics and Orthodox Jews do. It's almost like messianic received religion is the core issue and less religious societies have less sexual and physical violence towards women.
this post was submitted on 04 Aug 2023
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