ITT: the same right wing trolls pretending to be leftists. Don't even bother.
this post was submitted on 11 Feb 2024
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Not necessarily. There's also the accelerationists that want to burn the whole thing down and believe that they'll be around to rebuild their utopia in the ashes, without any regard for those who suffer and are murdered to try to achieve their selfish vision of society. All while ignoring the facts that accelerationism has never been demonstrated to actually work and that there's a pretty decent chance that they would be targeted for murder if an authoritarian government took over, prior to societal collapse.
accelerationists that want to burn the whole thing down and believe that they’ll be around to rebuild their utopia in the ashes
More that the system needs to be burned down because it is actively harming people. Whether Trump or Biden is in office, the DHS is responsible for the wrongful arrest and imprisonment of tens of thousands of people. The Pentagon and its affiliates are responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands more. Our Treasury and Energy Departments continue to subsidize historic levels of pollution which cannibalize vast swaths of arable land for fictitious profits.
Burning the political system that's destroying your country isn't about utopian idealism any more than sabotaging the bulldozer headed towards your house is about building your dream home.
accelerationism has never been demonstrated to actually work
I'd point you to the US Civil War as a very classic historical counterpoint. The country had to pass through four years of hell and quite literally immolate a large portion of its interior in order to purge the accumulated sins of a century of chattel slavery.
This isn't something anyone wants to live through, but we're far better as a country for going through it than subjecting another century's worth of Americans to the inhuman conditions of plantation bondage.
I'd point you to the US Civil War as a very classic historical counterpoint. The country had to pass through four years of hell and quite literally immolate a large portion of its interior in order to purge the accumulated sins of a century of chattel slavery.
I'll start by saying that Sherman stopped too soon. But, I am curious as to how that provides evidence for accelerationism. The US Civil War was started by slavers that were mad about not being allowed to expand chattle slavery into new territories. Lincoln and the others still allowed allied slave states to exist and tried to prevent it by offering compromises.
This isn't something anyone wants to live through, but we're far better as a country for going through it than subjecting another century's worth of Americans to the inhuman conditions of plantation bondage.
Agreed. Though the result was a significant improvement, though Jackson reversed too much.
I’ll start by saying that Sherman stopped too soon.
Based.
But, I am curious as to how that provides evidence for accelerationism. The US Civil War was started by slavers that were mad about not being allowed to expand chattle slavery into new territories
It started much earlier than that. John Brown and the abolitionist insurrection in Kansas and then Harper's Ferry West Virginia gave secessionists urgency in a way that prior activists had not. The Underground Railroad was seen as a tool of northern politicians to steal southern slaves. Lincoln's nomination to the Republican ticket was received as a plan by the majority party to curb slavery's expansion which - at the moment when they were racing for new territory to expand into - would have crippled their already underdeveloped economy even further.
Fort Sumter was where the war began, but this was a country that had staring into the abyss of civil strife for the last decade.
Lincoln and the others still allowed allied slave states to exist and tried to prevent it by offering compromises.
Lincoln needed to keep the border states around the capital loyal, so he deferred emancipation until after Gettysburg by which time the southern military had lost its steam. But he was right in line with Thaddeus Stevens in ideology, even if he was more strategic in his governance.
Though the result was a significant improvement, though Jackson reversed too much.
I assume you mean... Andrew Johnson?
Yeah. One of the big what-ifs of the period is a President Benjamin Butler.
Thanks for the well thought out response.
Fort Sumter was where the war began, but this was a country that had staring into the abyss of civil strife for the last decade.
Absolutely. There were abolitionists at the signing of the US Constitution even.
I assume you mean... Andrew Johnson?
You are correct. I mix the two names up.
While I agree with everything and see it's factuality, I still have some trouble connecting it to accelerationism. From my perspective it seems rather more in line with reform. Wouldn't accelerationism in that scenario have been more along the lines of Lincoln pushing for more slavery to try to trigger a slave revolt?
I still have some trouble connecting it to accelerationism
The straightest line I can draw is to simply point at the passage of the 13th, 14th, and 15th amendments. This would have simply not been possible had the southern states not rebelled and - as a consequence - temporarily lost their statehood and representation. Without the Civil War you simply could not have had the majorities necessary nor the moral imperative of 600k dead Americans, to legally exorcise the ghost of slavery from the soul of the nation.
Absent things getting significantly worse, they could not have so rapidly improved.
Wouldn’t accelerationism in that scenario have been more along the lines of Lincoln pushing for more slavery to try to trigger a slave revolt?
Not Lincoln, but Polk and Tyler and Pierce and Buchanan (with Filmore being a Biden-esque dude who failed to stop the train from careening off the tracks). Lincoln was the consequence of half a dozen new slave states rapidly joining the union and spreading the curse of slavery like wildfire. The huge expansion in arable land available to slavers combined with a steady rise in the domestic slave population, resulted in slavery becoming this enormous economic engine that sucked in all the neighboring states and necessitating court decisions like Dredd Scott and new legislation like the Fugitive Slave Act.
Slave auctions right outside the halls of Congress, slave gangs kidnapping freemen as far north as Rhode Island and Wisconsin, and slaves being put on display in northern states by visiting southern plutocrats had a serious impact on northern perceptions of slavery. It wasn't just a peculiar institution in a far away land, but a barbarism committed right out your own front door.
And it did culminate in a number of failed slave revolts, high profile slave murders, and various consequential conspiracy theories psychically destabilizing a lot of the southern population. John Brown's raid was the fulfillment of a long-held fear in southern households - that one day all these slaves would rise up and murder their masters. And Lincoln's election was seen as giving a guy like John Brown the Presidency.
That's why the Civil War was already in full swing before Lincoln even took office. He didn't need to do anything. The powder keg had already exploded before he even reached DC.
It has been a few months since you wrote this and I've finally been able to take since time to read it. I can certainly see the connections that you were making now. However, I'm not sure that I agree entirely with your conclusions.
The actions of the slavers were not intended to bring about positive change. Nor do I find evidence to suggest that making the world a worse place will inevitably push the pendulum in the other direction. It seems much more of a correlation/causation fallacy coupled with "ends justify the means" philosophy, intentionally inflicting suffering in the hope that it ultimately results in good, without concrete data to show that it would or even could.
However, again, I would like to thank you for taking the time to clarify. Both here and in other comment threads.
The actions of the slavers were not intended to bring about positive change.
No. But the partitioned system was already fraying, as the slave population began to eclipse the native white population in the south and spill over the borders into nominally "free" states up north. New York City was the largest hub of human trafficking in the nation when the war started, thanks to the Fugitive Slave Act.
By holding a unified obstructionist minority position, they could delay legal abolition indefinitely. Only by leaving the Union did they surrender their right to obstruct.
It seems much more of a correlation/causation fallacy coupled with “ends justify the means” philosophy
It should be noted that South Carolina was firing on Fort Sumtner before Buchanan was even out of office. So unless you consider "electing Lincoln" to be the mistake abolitionists made, I wouldn't consider the means questionable.
However, again, I would like to thank you for taking the time to clarify. Both here and in other comment threads.
No problem.
Where is the 3rd button with "Become an actuall democracy"?
doesn't exist, there is no "third button" you have to make it yourself, and until you achieve that it's a good idea to keep literally Hitler out of power, because you can't do that with LITERALLY HITLER
until you achieve that it’s a good idea to keep literally Hitler out of power
But Hitler gained power when the first-place party nominated him to the Chancellory as an effort to be bipartisan.
Why am I voting for Hindenberg if he's just going to appoint Hitler to head up Homeland Security?
Can you explain this line of thinking? I've heard this before but it doesn't line up for me.
Democrats threw tens of millions of dollars to a “Pro-Trump” Dem Senate candidate in Tennessee. Mayor Adams, up in NYC, has echoed a host of the Trump “immigrant invasion” talking points, when confronted with bus-loads of women and children kidnapped and displaced by governors’ Abbot and DeSantis.
Our AG is once again refusing to close the torture camp in Gitmo, while Anthony Blinken runs around the Middle East peddling advanced weapons systems to extremist governments in Saudi Arabia and Nigeria and India.
Even if Biden wins in '24, its very likely he'll have a GOP House and Senate to deal with. How many concessions will a guy who spent his entire career advocating Bipartisanship make to a Republican Party that's packed to the brim with Trump wanna-bes?
There is a very real possibility that Biden will give us a new round of ranking bureaucrats and judges who are right in line with Donald Trump, simply because that's what the GOP Congressional majority demands of him.
I'll take "a very real possibility" over an absolute certainty.
Hitler only lived to age 56. If trump had only lived to 56, he would've died in 2002, before The Apprentice had even aired. That's the better timeline for sure.
Trump had his moment hiding in the basement while it all crumbled around him, but he missed his chance to do the world the same courtesy.
Actually significantly below average even by the low bar of the Dem leadership. He was the most conservative democrat candidate in a field that included Amy Klobuchar and two billionaires, one of whom is a former republican.
He's barely to the left of Joe Manchin and neoliberals pretend that he's the most progressive president ever 🤦
And yes, of course he's still a much better choice than the Mango Mussolini, but talk about a low fucking bar!
Can you list out some of the legislation he's helped pass and some of his executive orders?
Edit: Instead of everyone continuing with the "here's one thing I didn't like" game, here's a non-exhaustive list for you:
- Rejoining the Paris Climate Agreement
- Rejoining the World Health Organization
- Revoking permits for the Keystone XL pipeline
- Ending support for Saudi Arabia's war in Yemen
- Withdrawing from Afghanistan
- Juneteenth National Independence Day Act
- American Rescue Plan
- Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act
- CHIPS and Science Act
- Inflation Reduction Act
- Honoring our PACT Act
- Eliminating the Schedule F class of federal workers Trump created that stripped federal workers of job protections
- Restoring collective bargaining rights to federal workers
Well there's the time he lobbied Congress to take away the rights of striking railway workers.
And then there's the fact that he circumvented normal procedures to expedite weapons sales to Israel twice in December alone.
That's just two of many examples of him being on the side of the rich and powerful and against regular people every time there's conflict between the two groups.
Those child detention centers at the border: still open on his term.
He's still against universal healthcare. I am tired of folks beating people for wanting candidates that are more electable than Biden running instead of him. Universal healthcare polls well on the right and left.
That one issue tells you everything you need to know about him, he sides with corporate lobbyists before material needs of the people.
Remember how much political capital Obama had to spend just to get the ACA passed, and even then just barely? I would love universal healthcare but this probably isn't the best time to push for it, at least not until fascism is defeated and Democrats have the numbers. The president isn't a genie who can just make things like this happen unilaterally. The public may support it but Republicans do not.
This is a bleak perspective and I refuse to believe that it isn't a good time. When will it ever. That view will never produce change.
Pushing for legislation that is a non-starter when we are barely able to pass a budget to keep the government running isn't a great strategy. Political capital needs to be spent where it is most effective, even if that means putting good legislation that isn't viable on the back burner from time to time.
I hope we get universal healthcare sooner rather than later, but our problems are a little more existential right now. They might elect the guy who wants to end democracy. Sometimes we must compromise and do what is viable rather than what is desired. The good should not be sacrificed in pursuit of the perfect.
People not getting healthcare right now, is just as existential. Why are we not deserving of passing that? The time to fight for things like that is now. I'm not saying we shouldn't vote against Trump, we are all saying it is best to have a healthy conversation about who would be a better candidate overall.
It has nothing to do with deserving, it has to do with viability.
How dare he… checks notes… prevent a national financial crisis but still worked to get the unions everything they wanted, and stand by our international allies in a crisis even when Congress won't.
I guess you'd prefer a reality where he takes the fall for the consequences of the strike, Republicans win, and Israel is thrown under the bus, providing an example to our other allies that we will do the same to them as soon as it's politically convenient. Brilliant politics.
prevent a national financial crisis
He did no such thing. That was just his bullshit excuse. The crisis from the next major derailment, one that could happen anywhere, including in major metropolitan areas, will likely be much worse than anything caused by upholding the rights of striking workers.
stand by our international allies in a crisis
Yeah, when those allies are operating an apartheid regime committing genocide, it's not a good thing to pretend that automatically taking their side is the principled thing to do. The crisis is of their own making and US support in the form of weapons and funding is making it worse, not better.
Republicans win, and Israel is thrown under the bus
Bullshit. Republicans are MORE staunchly in favor of the Israeli government, being fellow fascists.
we will do the same to them as soon as it's politically convenient
Yeah, because not enabling genocide by an apartheid regime is all about convenience! Gtfo with that bullshit!
- You seem to be under the impression that the strike was about safety, it was not. It was about sick days.
- Israel is neither genocidal nor an apartheid state, this is total hyperbole, and I'm very glad the Biden administration does not share your warped redefinitions of these terms. Biden is now putting sanctions on those who go too far in Israel, which I appreciate. I hope he goes after their right wing politicians next.
- The comment I was responding to wanted Biden to throw Israel under the bus, not the Republicans that would replace him due to the financial consequences of a national rail strike.
You seem to be under the impression that the strike was about safety, it was not. It was about sick days.
It was about both. You can repeat your narrative as many times as you want, doesn't change the fact that you're lying.
Israel is neither genocidal nor an apartheid state,
False. It's by definition a case of both.
this is total hyperbole
Wrong again.
your warped redefinitions of these terms
Those aren't my definitions. They are those of the Genocide Convention and South African Apartheid survivors.
Biden is now putting sanctions on those who go too far in Israel
Nope. He's frozen assets of a handful of civilian murderers from the West Bank, but is still supporting the Israeli government genocide with weapons, funding and lying about the extent of their atrocities.
The comment I was responding to wanted Biden to throw Israel under the bus
Israel IS the bus and he's throwing his own re-election prospects under it. He's already alienated significant portions of crucial battleground states like Michigan and he's hemorrhaging support from every voter who doesn't consider massacring civilians the cost of doing business.
the Republicans that would replace him due to the financial consequences of a national rail strike.
Again, a purely fictional hypothetical invented to excuse the ongoing gross violations of labor rights by some of his favorite owner donors.
I swear you Biden stans are just as blind to the many faults of your Dear Leader as the Trump cult sometimes 🤦
Israel has not been found guilty of violating either statute, keep repeating it like a mantra but it doesn't make it any more true. 21% of Israel's population is Arab/Palestinian and they have full legal citizenship rights. Pretty odd for an, "apartheid state." Israel is not attempting to destroy Palestinians in whole or in part, they are responding to an attack by a belligerent nation and going to great lengths to select legal targets in response even if they have significant collateral damage. It's clear this is about self-defense and not racial based punishment, despite your uncharitable portrayal.
I swear you Biden stans are just as blind to the many faults of your Dear Leader as the Trump cult sometimes 🤦
Biden is the best president we've had in a long time and I'm tired of Hamas stans criticizing him for supporting our allies against unprovoked terrorist attacks. Supporting our allies in a time of crisis is the right thing to do.