British Museum: "what's a country of origin?"
this post was submitted on 19 Aug 2023
806 points (97.7% liked)
Lefty Memes
4531 readers
457 users here now
An international (English speaking) socialist Lemmy community free of the "ML" influence of instances like lemmy.ml and lemmygrad. This is a place for undogmatic shitposting and memes from a progressive, anti-capitalist and truly anti-imperialist perspective, regardless of specific ideology.
Serious posts, news, and discussion go in c/Socialism.
If you are new to socialism, you can ask questions and find resources over on c/Socialism101.
Please don't forget to help keep this community clean by reporting rule violations, updooting good contributions and downdooting those of low-quality!
Rules
0. Only post socialist memes
That refers to funny image macros and means that generally videos and screenshots are not allowed. Exceptions include explicitly humorous and short videos, as well as (social media) screenshots depicting a funny situation, joke, or joke picture relating to socialist movements, theory, societal issues, or political opponents. Examples would be the classic case of humorous Tumblr or Twitter posts/threads. (and no, agitprop text does not count as a meme)
1. Socialist Unity in the form of mutual respect and good faith interactions is enforced here
Try to keep an open mind, other schools of thought may offer points of view and analyses you haven't considered yet. Also: This is not a place for the Idealism vs. Materialism or rather Anarchism vs. Marxism debate(s), for that please visit c/AnarchismVsMarxism.
2. Anti-Imperialism means recognizing capitalist states like Russia and China as such
That means condemning (their) imperialism, even if it is of the "anti-USA" flavor.
3. No liberalism, (right-wing) revisionism or reactionaries.
That includes so called: Social Democracy, Democratic Socialism, Dengism, Market Socialism, Patriotic Socialism, National Bolshevism, Anarcho-Capitalism etc. . Anti-Socialist people and content have no place here, as well as the variety of "Marxist"-"Leninists" seen on lemmygrad and more specifically GenZedong (actual ML's are welcome as long as they agree to the rules and don't just copy paste/larp about stuff from a hundred years ago).
4. No Bigotry.
The only dangerous minority is the rich.
5. Don't demonize previous and current socialist experiments or (leading) individuals.
We must constructively learn from their mistakes, while acknowledging their achievements and recognizing when they have strayed away from socialist principles.
(if you are reading the rules to apply for modding this community, mention "Mantic Minotaur" when answering question 2)
6. Don't idolize/glorify previous and current socialist experiments or (leading) individuals.
Notable achievements in all spheres of society were made by various socialist/people's/democratic republics around the world. Mistakes, however, were made as well: bureaucratic castes of parasitic elites - as well as reactionary cults of personality - were established, many things were mismanaged and prejudice and bigotry sometimes replaced internationalism and progressiveness.
- Absolutely no posts or comments meant to relativize(/apologize for), advocate, promote or defend:
- Racism
- Sexism
- Queerphobia
- Ableism
- Classism
- Rape or assault
- Genocide/ethnic cleansing or (mass) deportations
- Fascism
- (National) chauvinism
- Orientalism
- Colonialism or Imperialism (and their neo- counterparts)
- Zionism
- Religious fundamentalism of any kind
founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
I came here to say this, BM is the worst.
It's fun to say this, but at least BM is really able to do their main job and preserve the artifacts.
There's dozens of cases where the original sites have been looted or destroyed by the origin country's own leaders.
Storing the artifacts outside of the influence of an area's internal issues is actually really wise. The BM's real wrongdoing is not paying anything for the artifacts they've took. I argue they've done enough good to offset that a little. They're bad but not the worst.
That's a lot of words to make the exact same excuses used not only to steal the art in the first place, but to colonise the countries it came from too - that us "civilised" people need to take care of their things because they are too "savage" to do it themselves.
Spoken like a true coloniser.
Fun Fact:
European society decided at one point that eating mummies was a great and healthy idea.
Previously it was quite easy to find mummified remains in Egypt, that's what a 6,000 year old tradition will do, but the by the time the British Empire went through its Egypt Fever phase they had eaten so many corpses there was a supply shortage.
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-gruesome-history-of-eating-corpses-as-medicine-82360284/
They actually paid for a lot of the artifacts. A lot of arguments come from people who don't realize stolen is hyperbole.
British Museum gets a lot of hate but there are plenty of museums that's have walked off with others countries treasure. The Pergamon museum in Berlin took literal chunks of ancient cities
Germany is returning stolen artifacts, and even getting criticism for it when it backfires like it happened with the Benin Bronzes (which the Nigerian government gave to the former royal family and are not available to the general public in any country now).
But the Benin Bronzes were stolen from the royal palace. They weren’t available for the general public before they were stolen. It’s up to the royal family if they should be put up for display since it is their property.
Royalty is an illegitimate concept. Any property they have is an act of theft as well.
True. I'd never be one to argue that BM should get less hate, but I'd also never be one to argue that you shouldn't ALSO hate on others for doing the same thing..
How about we make them all give it back or make reforms to show them in host countries while the origin country retains ancestral ownership? Kinda like loaning art out.
Does that extend to all the artifacts they purchased? If I buy a painting from an artist, and years later their grandchild demands it back saying it's a family heirloom, am I under any obligation to return it?
British museum is truly terrible, but tbh the only reason people know about it and know to tag on it is because they try to reckon with their existence. Just over the channel in France is Musée du Quai Branly, which was originally going to be called “museum of the primitive arts”, that first of all costs money (BM is free) but also does a terrible job of explaining what the items are and who stole them from whom. BM tries to contextualiza what they stole and when and from whom, Quai Branly is a straight up colonial museum (there are other worse museums in Europe)
Typical Viking hippie response.
Yes, actually. It is very much in line with my values as a left wing pacifist from Scandinavia 😁
Excellent! Viking hippies sound super chill - my kinda people!
Thanks, right back at you 😁
I’ll take that as a compliment?
Sure!
There's only the country of destination
Imagine all these country's have trash that is worthless.
Some British guy comes along and says I "hey see that over there can I buy it?" "What that trash?" "Yes" "Sure thing dipshit"
Then instead of being destroyed like everything else it gains value and then they want it back.
Yea sure I also want my dads apple shares he sold in 1985 because I didn't realise they would be valuable in the future when he sold them.
Most of the stuff was bought.
But even the conquest shit. People have been conquesting each other for ever. Suddenly you want to take stuff back of one country that just happened to be good at it in the days when everyone agreed that was how the world worked.
"We shouldn't do the right thing because neither did our ancestors."
The British bought it. It's ours. That's how ownership works.
It's not up to the British to parent the world. They made their choice.
It wouldn't exist in the present if the British hadn't bought it and looked after it.
If you're speaking of the geographic coordinate system, england IS the origin 🤷
“MY MUSEUM”
What's the difference between a british archeologist and a grave robber?
The Diploma
What is the country of origin? Please point out to me where the Aztec country is. Do you mean Mexico? Are they entitled to all the relics of the past civilizations theirs crushed? And yes, I know the idol in Indiana Jones isn't really Aztec, but the overall point stands.
With the exception of the very few cases where a country can actually trace its culture and history all the way back to when those artifacts were made, ancient culture and artifacts belong to humanity as a whole, not whatever geopolitical entity happens to control the land they're on at the time of discovery. It's not a natural resource, it's human history.
While we may debate wether the Aztecs descendants are now the Mexicans, they're clearly not the English. The fact that it's human history is exactly why it can't be all stored in mostly one museum in one country
Would it be ok if Spain took it then?
The Aztecs are not from Europe, dingdong. How is this a difficult concept??
I don't think that strangers coming to your country and taking your historical artifacts is a good thing, wether it's the English or the Spanish
It should be as close to the origin as possible. Sure Mexico isnt fully "Aztec'" but it's the closest option, certainly closer than anyone else