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They're not a barista who's taking too long to make you a coffee. Stop blaming Ukraine for not defending themselves fast enough.
I'm surprised they let you have a keyboard.
Ukraine ain't losing shit.
Common L take from the Economist.
And as always this subs moderators just don't care about the tankies with their disinformation campaigns, even though they clearly state it in the rules.
Solution: dump more money into the war, no peace talks with Russia, just keep dumping all the equipment reserves so that the stock line goes up!
Deliver the F-16s and when that fails to beat Russia just like every promised wunderwaffe has just make up a new one!
The US should give Ukraine some of their aircraft carriers as well.
I vote nukes too while we're at it.
Wow, Ukraine needs equipment to fight off an aggressor with a population almost 4 times bigger than its own. What a thought!
I also find it interesting that you want to have 'peace talks' with a country that not only invaded without provocation, but also continues to rape and torture people, among other war crimes they have, are and undoubtedly will continue to commit.
Ukraine did sign a peace deal with Russia at the beginning of this mess, and then immediately backed out when the West yanked Zelensky's leash.
It's very telling that the terms that Russia imposed on this deal were:
Neutrality
Stop bombing East Ukraine
Accept that East Ukrainians can speak and learn Russian if they wish to.
Remove Nazis from positions of power and the military.
Russia did not start a war of conquest in Ukraine. That's just the Western narrative to maintain popular support for a proxy war with a nuclear power.
Sure, the evil west forced them to rape and pillage and torture and bomb civilians and kidnap children and take over land that is not theirs. It's not conquest, it's just taking land that's not theirs! It's fine because the west made them do it! /s
Do you have any proof for those accusations, or are you just assuming they are true because it's convenient to believe so?
Because we know what the West has done. It's all recorded. Lindsay Graham going to Azov Battalion fighters and telling them "this is the year of offence". Boris Johnson telling Zelensky to abandon peace talks or "the West won't protect him". Adam Shiff standing in Congress and saying "we need to fight Russia over there, so we don't have to fight them over here". Angela Merkel admitting that the Minsk Accords were simply a ploy for time to arm Ukraine to fight Russia. NATO insisting on inviting Ukraine in and stationing nuclear-capable missiles less than 1000 km from Moscow. A coup in Kiev organized by Americans, as admitted by several Ukrainians who took part in it. And 14000 dead Ukrainians after 8 years of continuous shelling by Nazis, specifically targeting civilians. But of course those dead weren't killed by Russian forces, so it's easy to ignore them.
Any more double standards you want me to break down for you, you fucking hypocrite armchair warmonger?
What a weird rambling. Do you really believe this? That is one weird-ass list of made-up bullshit and obvious misquotes.
I almost hope that you get payed for this, because if you’re really gullible enough to actually believe these lies, oh my…
If it's made up, prove me wrong.
Ah yes, name-calling, the true sign you're winning an argument.
Wikipedia says it so it must be true.
I also suggest you read the UN report that wikipedia is citing so lobsidedly and conveniently ignoring the parts where it talks about Ukraine's war crimes https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/documents/countries/ua/2022-06-29/2022-06-UkraineArmedAttack-EN.pdf
PS. Lies are ok, but name-calling is a no no? How civilized of you!
Wikipedia has many, many sources for these war crimes, including the Human Rights Watch, NYT, BBC, CNBC, Amnesty International, Reuters and even the *International Criminal Court *. Nothing you linked to disproves the claims in the wiki article.
Yes and all of these sources also speak out about observing Ukrainian war crimes, which are far better documented by these very organizations. Russian war crimes are not proven and nearly all accusations come from Ukraine, UK and US, which are not impartial to say the least.
Yet the collective West is infatuated by "Russian war crimes". In fact, whenever an organization tries to showcase Ukrainian war crimes (see Amnesty International for example) Western audience are quick to attack them.
Let's just review one of the Russian "war crimes" as an example: https://thegrayzone.com/2023/03/31/iccs-putin-arrest-state-dept-report/
At any rate, the point here is if you care about war crimes, then you should care about ALL war crimes. Not just the ones that are convenient to care about.
Russian war crimes are not proven
You're obviously not arguing in good faith with claims like these. You would claim any source I provide to be untrustworthy unless it came from the mouth of Putin himself. Not even photo evidence, Amnesty International (which you yourself used) or the International Criminal Court is good enough for you.
For that reason, I will not be continuing this conversation.
I can only hope you're young so that you have a chance of growing up from the propaganda you've been fed. I hope you don't yet realize the evil of the machine you're feeding and I hope one day you will.
P. S. At not point did anyone claim that any war crimes Ukraine could commit are OK. If someone commits them, they should be held accountable. It just so happens they are not relevant to whether or not Russia was justified in attacking Ukraine, even if any of them happened. Especially because for war crimes... There has to be a war first.
the point here is if you care about war crimes, then you should care about ALL war crimes.
Interesting way to admit you don't care about war crimes. But then, you have been brushing them off this entire time.
invaded without provocation
LOL
Here's two little things that happened literally just days before Russia decided to invade:
Ceasefire violations against the DPR and LPR:
Zelensky threatening to pull out of the non-proliferation treaty and acquire nuclear weapons: https://uawire.org/zelensky-ukraine-may-reconsider-its-nuclear-status
I see you guys posting these ceasefire violation images all the time like it's some smoking gun for Ukraine being the aggressor in their defensive war.
Where does it show which troops the ceasefire violation was committed by? And why would ceasefire violations along an internal border like this warrant a full scale invasion from another country?
I see you guys posting these ceasefire violation images all the time like it’s some smoking gun for Ukraine being the aggressor in their defensive war
Russia is fighting a defensive war against NATO expansion and Ukraine is the aggressor here, they are the ones who violated Minsk 1/2 and never fulfilled their duty to go through a constitutional reform and grant Donetsk and Lugansk more autonomy:
Where does it show which troops the ceasefire violation was committed by?
In the OSCE reports:
https://www.osce.org/special-monitoring-mission-to-ukraine/512506
https://www.osce.org/special-monitoring-mission-to-ukraine/512605
https://www.osce.org/special-monitoring-mission-to-ukraine/512629
https://www.osce.org/special-monitoring-mission-to-ukraine/512683
Are you suggesting that people in Donetsk and Lugansk bombed themselves to make Ukraine look bad?
And why would ceasefire violations along an internal border like this warrant a full scale invasion from another country?
Because it's a violation of the ceasefire between Ukraine and the Donetsk and Lugansk People's Republics, the three were supposed to stay as one country so long as Ukraine kept their promise and didn't violate Minsk 2, but they did so now we have an even bigger war there.
Then why did Russia start amassing troops and preparing for war months before these ceasefire violations even happened?
What's more plausible, that Russia has precognitive abilities, or that it was looking for an excuse?
And isn't attacking another country kind of counter to this whole 'peace talks' narrative you seem to be suggesting? Shouldn't Russia itself start with condemning the ceasefire violations, instead of entering Ukraine with their army?
No matter which way you try to slice it, Russia is an aggressor.
Edit:
Btw I would have no trouble believing that Russia (or Russian-aligned separatists) bombed a part of Ukraine to make Ukraine look bad and take over the territory. They're committing war crimes left and right, and this would not be the worst one.
Lol, precognitive abilities. That's what you need to maintain your cognitive dissonance? The US has been pushing NATO expansion to Russia's border since 1992. It doesn't take a genius to see a pattern that unfolds and repeats over 3 decades.
Your entire narrative relies on Russia just suddenly being an aggressive so that you can attribute the root cause to its internal evil. The reality is that Russia has been talking about this for 30 years and has been very consistent with how it communicated its national security needs. Each aggression you have seen from Russia is part of Russia attempting to respond to US/NATO expansion.
Remember that Russia was invaded twice across the Ukraine border: first by France under Napoleon and then by Germany under the Third Reich. This time, NATO is a transnational nuclear military with no democratic accountability and instead of fighting across Europe it is negotiating across Europe but the strategic positioning is still the same: a massive nuclear military is marching across Europe, aimed at Russia, staffed and developed under Nazi leadership (literally, look it up), and attempting to put a readiness presence at the indefensible border. Russia amassed troops at the border because of history, not because of fantasy precog nor fantasy evil.
Way to conveniently forget the hostile takeover of Crimea.
Also, something happened inside of Ukraine's borders is now provocation... For Russia to invade? Conveniently having amassed 150k troops along Ukraine's border, while the world has been publicly discussing their imminent invasion for months?
Russia decided to invade months earlier.
Just how much are they paying you, huh?
Way to conveniently forget the hostile takeover of Crimea
Ah yes, the hostile takeover that happened after a popular referendum and saw no resistance from the local population, very much violent, unlike Ukraine shelling Donbass for years of course, that was just defensive peacekeeping to maintain democracy in Europe!
Also, something happened inside of Ukraine’s borders is now provocation… For Russia to invade?
Yes, because as it turns out it wasn't inside Ukraine's borders, it was a violation of the DPR/LPR's borders since Ukraine backstabbed everyone and decided to rip Minsk 2 apart :^)
Just how much are they paying you, huh?
10 rubles per comment /s
You mean the referendum that happened AFTER the Russian military invaded? https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26606097
I'm sure having a gun to their heads had nothing to do with it.
turns out it wasn’t inside Ukraine’s borders
So you're just straight up gonna lie now...?
What about it is a lie? The DPR and LPR had real borders and Ukraine violated those borders by deciding to rip apart Minsk 2 and attack them.
@Krause @dandi8 https://news.yahoo.com/russia-belarus-strategy-document-230035184.html Sure sure also say that this fake and this is fake https://news.yahoo.com/belarusian-president-displays-map-suggesting-222320415.html . Btw if you would, can you check on USSR history textbook of I don't know 1990 and compare it to modern Russian History books? I think you might see a pattern there, I won't point out which, but there is tendency in Russia to censorship. Btw your facts might hold up year ago, you know why it no longer facts? Because https://kbin.social/m/Ukraine_UA/t/314777 like how many times Russia can lie? Always
According to the document, issued in fall 2021, the end goal is the formation of a so-called Union State of Russia and Belarus by no later than 2030.
The Union State already exists and has since 1999: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_State
The Union State,[b] or Union State of Russia and Belarus,[c] is a supranational union consisting of Belarus and Russia, with the stated aim of deepening the relationship between the two states through integration in economic and defence policy.[6][7]
Western media reporting on dumb things to spread fear and propaganda, as always.
@Krause Sure sure pick one point of all interconected ones. I also remember this news that would celebrate Russia victory https://web.archive.org/web/20220226051154/https://ria.ru/20220226/rossiya-1775162336.html so it's not an Belarus + Russian as you claim. Heck there is this clown of the show https://v.redd.it/4cyvhkmvcjk81 digging old news is fun! But just right now I saw these news https://moldovamatters.substack.com/p/lukashenko-predicts-an-invasion-of . But suuuure it's all Ukraine fault, because NAZI! Well good luck with this clown!
Why did you @ me? I'm pro-Ukraine, anti-Russia.
I think the real wunderwaffle is the T-14 Armata...
Well the Ukrainian people want exactly that to happen and there's no ethical reason for Russia to invade a sovereign country.
If anything the west should show less hesitation to deliver really spicy stuff.