this post was submitted on 27 Jun 2024
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So it's no secret that some parts of the army in the USA and my country (UK) sometimes use legacy software like DOS for niche roles as they're robust including older versions of Windows.

But.. where does Linux fit in this? It's a kernel OS that's used in top of the line supercomputers, workstations, medical equipment and weather stations.

I imagine some aspects of this would be military secrets but how do they use it? I know that Linux was used for certain space projects with NASA but I'm talking about army applications.

TLDR : Does the penguin OS power shooty shooty machines and tanks

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[–] Lettuceeatlettuce@lemmy.ml 53 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I've heard that the DoD uses RHEL pretty extensively. RHEL in the US Military

That article says that the US military has the largest single install base for RHEL in the world, but that was about 15 years ago, I don't know if that's still true.

Apparently back then the US nuclear sub fleet and its sonar systems also ran on RHEL.

I suspect lots of military hardware runs some form of *Nix or BSD type system. Many embedded systems run some *Nix type OS, and a huge portion of the developed world's weaponry is smart, so it it full of low power embedded systems and custom SoCs.

[–] Bitrot@lemmy.sdf.org 16 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Red Hat has long benefitted from being the primary enterprise Linux company based in the US (no, we don’t count Oracle). SUSE created US-based Rancher Government Solutions to get some of that business and it seems to have been getting a lot of interest, despite being early days. They did a good job of focusing on modern technologies and immutable systems.

[–] fruitycoder@sh.itjust.works 3 points 1 year ago

I'm super excited to see SLES more in the US government space with RGS. RedHat was my goto champion of FOSS in public sector but since they have gone less Libre/FOSS SUSE is last big commercial Linux company still going commuting to FOSS.

[–] bloodfart@lemmy.ml 51 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Don’t look too deeply into this unless you’re comfortable discovering that the military and security state is a prolific contributor to many open source projects.

[–] treadful@lemmy.zip 41 points 1 year ago (1 children)

SELinux was a product of the NSA. Maybe the best thing that agency has done.

[–] Mixel@feddit.de 14 points 1 year ago (1 children)

They also created ghidra! Probably second best

[–] model_tar_gz@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago

Also PRISM. Maybe the third—wait, wrong side of the array—worst.

[–] possiblylinux127@lemmy.zip 10 points 1 year ago

I don't find that problematic as they are the ones how are likely to push for good security and reliability

[–] wildbus8979@sh.itjust.works 22 points 1 year ago

https://www.redhat.com/en/blog/red-Hats-decade-of-collaboration-with-government-and-the-open-source-community

When we rolled into Baghdad, we did it using open source. - Major General Nicholas Justice

[–] 0x0@programming.dev 22 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Check out the World of Tanks forums for information.

[–] biscuitswalrus@aussie.zone 2 points 1 year ago

Oh you got a good chuckle out of me

[–] jjlinux@lemmy.ml 19 points 1 year ago (3 children)

There are many reasons Microsoft software is only "good" (and I'm using that word loosely) in business and home settings. Can you imagine a rocket taking off and windows suddenly "rebooting to complete updates" (or whatever it is that it says along those lines)?

[–] possiblylinux127@lemmy.zip 9 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Rockets probably use a dedicated OS that is safety validated. Getting something validated for critical operations is a massive endeavor.

[–] KingThrillgore@lemmy.ml 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Correct, missiles use something like RTEMS, which is named because it was used for missiles (no really, it originally stood for Real Time Executive for Missile Systems) and the operating demands for missiles have to be real-time given their unique edge cases.

Disclaimer: I worked on RTEMS in College

[–] Hugin@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago

Not only is it hard to get certified for things like rockets but they usually use a realtime os like red hawk (a red hat fork).

[–] Max_P@lemmy.max-p.me 9 points 1 year ago (1 children)
[–] jjlinux@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I'll watch it right now and come back. BRB.

Edit: now I have to "arrr" that series and watch it. 🤣🤣

[–] 0x0@programming.dev 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Running a full OS on a rocket? Why? It's mostly some embedded stuff, some kind of arduino.

The launching platform though... maybe a minimalist OS with a curses interface.

[–] jjlinux@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 year ago

That's a real brain fuck. Now I need to go research this.

[–] menas@lemmy.wtf 17 points 1 year ago (1 children)
[–] possiblylinux127@lemmy.zip 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It depends on what side you are on. At the end of the day a tool is a tool

[–] menas@lemmy.wtf 5 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I said such things too, but one day I ask myself, could I said it in front of people bombed by my tools ? Our tools are not neutral things, but produce and distribute by social relationship that we could fight. Sorry but we the rise of fascism and ecological disaster we could not afford to give up our power as producer to mass murderer

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[–] KrapKake@lemmy.world 16 points 1 year ago

Well I know my local army base (US) was looking for Linux sys admins, so I figure they have some servers on base.

[–] eugenia@lemmy.ml 16 points 1 year ago (4 children)

Greek military uses Linux Mint, so yeah, it's used in some places. I believe the Indian one does too.

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[–] Eheran@lemmy.world 14 points 1 year ago (1 children)

as they're robust

I would argue they are just what was used during development. After that, it never changes.

Why did they use it back then? Were there many alternatives? I do not know.

[–] xyguy@startrek.website 8 points 1 year ago (3 children)

I haven't done any work for the military but i can say that all the legacy systems I've worked on were because the specific software they need was written only for Windows 98 and the developer or company that created it is long gone. Keeping it going is a chore but switching to literally anything else is out of the question.

I could see for military applications that having the known quantity of a working piece of software that isn't changing anymore and can be swapped as an entire unit is an advantage, especially if it doesn't touch the internet in any capacity. But eventually you run out of people who know what to do if any changes need to be made.

[–] possiblylinux127@lemmy.zip 2 points 1 year ago

It probably depends how many billions are going into it.

[–] Bitrot@lemmy.sdf.org 2 points 1 year ago

For stuff that is still maintained but also legacy, military and contracting benefit from being a pretty insular community. Contractors are full of military retirees. What this does is give a pool of people who worked with the products for a very long time on one side who move over into maintaining them on the other, less knowledge is lost. It still happens and things must change eventually, but they manage to delay things where someone else like a bank might have a harder time when their knowledgeable employee leaves and they’re hiring people off the street.

[–] 0x0@programming.dev 2 points 1 year ago

COBOL has entered the room... although i've heard Ada is more popular in military applications.

[–] earmuff@lemmy.dbzer0.com 11 points 1 year ago

We used it as OS for the tank and airplane simulators, just because it made them cheaper compared to buying 500 Windows licenses

[–] blackstrat@lemmy.fwgx.uk 11 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I imagine they use it in much the same way as any enterprise. Running servers and workstations, mostly.

F16's run Kubenetes clusters.

Lots of individual bits of hardware on specialized devices will be running embedded operating systems. QNX is big in automotive for the same reasons it'd work on a rocket.

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[–] hillosipuli@discuss.tchncs.de 11 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Linux is commonly used in the communications systems, like on invidual radio "stations". Propably used everywhere where high confidentiality and security is required.

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[–] mvirts@lemmy.world 8 points 1 year ago

Most of that information is actually publicly available.

Stuff like this https://www.usaspending.gov/search/?hash=624182a957cfea14bc90717fb91ec1f8

[–] LordCrom@lemmy.world 8 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Didn't they at one point use a bank of PS3s when they still allowed for Linux boot options?

[–] Crashumbc@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago

I'm not sure about the military, but yes a number of researchers used PS3s for cheap computing power.

[–] BaroqueInMind@lemmy.one 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Looks like that are switching over from a generic Linux into android

[–] kiara@lemmy.ml 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Linux distro NixOS is used by mil-tech company Anduril

[–] MonkeMischief@lemmy.today 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I've heard of Palantir, now Anduril... What's next, Saruman Ltd.? Uruk-Hai-corp? Poor Tolkien doesn't deserve his mythology being co-opted by war profiteers. :(

[–] Mike1576218@lemmy.ml 3 points 1 year ago

BTW: Anduril is a startup from Luckey Palmer, the guy that built the Oculus VR headset in his garage. The later sold Oculus to Meta for 2 billion $. 3 ex Palantir guys started Anduril together with him.

[–] Churbleyimyam@lemm.ee 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I saw a youtuber once reviewing the distro that the Russian military uses. It had some crusty retro desktop environment iirc.

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[–] kureta@lemmy.ml 3 points 1 year ago

Turkish military uses Pardus, a Turkish Linux distro, but I'm not sure to what extent.

[–] fratermus@lemmy.sdf.org 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

When I was in the army the S1 desk jockeys were using dedicated word processors with 8" floppies. Get off my lawn! :-)

[–] z00s@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago

Knowing what the army is like, that could have been in 2010 lol

[–] technocrit@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I'm not so worried about stormtroopers using linux as much as guns, bombs, prisons, cops, torture, genocide, nukes, etc.

[–] possiblylinux127@lemmy.zip 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Why are you asking? Yes it is used but obviously the exact systems are kept secret. As far as I know it is a mixed environment. I do know the US Air Force uses Kubernetes

[–] Tekkip20@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

I ask because using the funni penguin kernel in a weapons grade equipment is funny

[–] BCsven@lemmy.ca 1 points 1 year ago
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