0
More will come, hopefully.
Let the floodgates open.
Its getting safer.
So now you're against Biden? What happened, PugJesus?
I pointed out in our last scuffle that I was a supporter of Biden stepping down. Multiple times. What I opposed was the presumption that, if he did not, allowing fascism to win was a morally acceptable alternative, like you suggested.
So you do or don't think Biden can win it?
I think it will be a much harder fight if Biden does not step down, and that he has a duty to the country to step down.
Whether he can win it? It would be entirely on anti-Trump sentiment, and not at all because of his influence - which, at this point, is overall detrimental to the ticket.
Let's put it this way - it's a tough race, and Biden was supposed to be an extra sail for the ship. Only he turned out to be a bit of debris jutting out of the side, slowing the ship down. CAN this ship still beat the opposing one in the race? Potentially, if our ship is otherwise fast or the opposing ship slows. But it sure as hell isn't going to be because we had some piece of rotting wood dragging in the water behind us.
Biden was supposed to be an extra sail for the ship.
An "extra sail"? He's the president. It's a presidential campaign. He is the ship and it's completely submerged.
I'm sorry that you think that most Americans think like you, and would prefer to let fascism win than elect a shitty candidate to the presidency. The reality in a two-party system like our's, and especially one with a grotesque candidate like Trump on the opposing ticket, is that people are voting for parties every bit as much as candidates.
Cmon. That's not at all what his comment was saying. Don't start being a dick just to be dickish.
It's related to a different conversation we had, and discussed in the comments here regarding not voting against Trump, not a direct line drawn from "Biden is sunk" to "I should let fascism win".
But you think he should still serve as president? At this apparent diminished capacity?
No, ideally he'd step down from the presidency too, but that's less realistic to expect. Replacement as the candidate, on the other hand, has a real chance at this point in time.
I suggested that? Where?
Welp…it’s over folks. To those continually downvoting me because you can’t face facts, it’s time. As a staunch Democrat, I cannot bring myself to support that man any longer. Either find a new candidate or this will be the first presidential election I don’t vote in.
This wasn't the original message as you edited it, the original was more explicit that you were actively refusing to vote against fascism if it came down to fascism or Biden, but it's close enough to the original in meaning.
Yup, I said "go fascism." I see it, right there. If I squeeze my eyes really tightly.
Again, it's this "fascism or else" distillation that is going to drive people away from politics and the polls, not towards.
Yup, I said “go fascism.” I see it, right there. If I squeeze my eyes really tightly.
You said that in the case of fascism against Biden, you would let fascism win. Pretty unambiguous.
And then tried to bothsides fascism with Biden by calling the presumption that the opposition was literally fucking fascism as insufficiently nuanced view of the race. Because, as we all know, Trump et co are very complex. They definitely aren't fascists with their masks all the way off.
Again, you can't read and I can't rationalize with someone so defensive. Have a good one.
Again, you can read
Yes, hence why I was able to parse you saying
And distilling the complexities of American leadership and our standing in the world into fascism vs. dementia is just naïve and simpleminded.
In a discussion about whether or not voting against fascism was necessary to not be pro-fascist (PROTIP: it is). If there is complexity in this, it is on the Democratic side, which is a mess and a big tent with a shitty candidate at the moment. There's no 'complexity' about the fascism that Trump et co are peddling. When I asked you to explain this, you refused, what, three times?
Whatever, they're on the right side now.
Its just a matter of there is enough time to undo the damage that was caused by Blue Maga.
As way of explanation, as my opinion on the matter changed before my little argument with Coach, it was Democratic Congresscritters coming out to call on Biden to step down.
We live in a society where meaningless and twisted data abounds, propagandists push opposed views, and news is more interested in a click than the truth (not to say the past was any better on that point). As long as Biden's support from those well-placed to be informed in his own party was solid, I was willing to accept that Biden, while undeniably slowing down, still had the best chance of pushing through with the advantage of incumbency and name recognition.
Once he lost the full support of his party in such a major and public way, as Congresscritters asking the sitting president to step down as candidate for their own party is fucking unheard of, and Nancy fucking Pelosi all but asking him with a public statement, it became apparent that, through all the noise, something was desperately wrong. Dem Congresscritters have next-to-nothing to gain by replacing Biden, and their seats to potentially lose - not to mention the cooperation of the President if Biden were to win.
That they're speaking up in PUBLIC means that things are SERIOUSLY fucked, and I take the opinion of those placed so close to the President, and so tied to his fortunes, very seriously. If there's one thing that you can trust Congresscritters on, usually, it's that they want to keep their seats and the power it comes with, and their actions will tend towards that.
I think you need to acknowledge the roll you played in silencing a dissent that has for months been trying to communicate that that Biden is not winning this election. You in-particular were part of a group trying to brow-beat myself and others into submission under the false premise that Biden "is going to be the nominee" and "is the best chance for us to beat Trump". It was wrong, both in principal, approach, and underlying assumptions, and it maybe has cost us our ability to beat Trump.
The approach is what built the seeds of what is now "Blue Maga", a deluded cult of personality that has the real chance of stopping us from stopping Trump. You did work that hurt our ability to stop Trump. Its good that you've come around, but how you conducted yourself for months did real damage to this community.
Look at the vote count. This isn't an opinion piece or some far left anything. Its a local news station breaking a story about their House representative. That negative vote count on basic reality, "Just the facts ma'am" reporting is Blue Maga.
I think you need to acknowledge the roll you played in silencing a dissent that has for months been trying to communicate that that Biden is not winning this election. You in-particular were part of a group trying to brow-beat myself and others into submission under the false premise that Biden “is going to be the nominee” and “is the best chance for us to beat Trump”.
At the time, the information pointed towards that. Congress members asking a member of their own party to step down publicly is fucking unprecedented. The advantage of the incumbent is offering unity to the party by providing an unambiguous candidate to rally behind - once the incumbent can't offer that, he loses much of the advantage that he would otherwise have. As information available to me changed, so too did my view of the best way to move forward.
It was wrong, both in principal, approach, and underlying assumptions, and it maybe has cost us our ability to beat Trump.
For not wanting the candidate who was actually running to be undermined at every turn? You had no alternatives. Hell, the only reason there are alternatives now is because of the debate sapping confidence in Biden and causing enough pressure to emerge to potentially have him step down from the candidacy. God only knows what ugliness will emerge if he refuses to step down and the DNC tries to replace him. A lot of arguing about rules, and a lot of damage to the ticket, I imagine.
The approach is what built the seeds of what is now “Blue Maga”, a deluded cult of personality that has the real chance of stopping us from stopping Trump.
Lord.
Look at the vote count. This isn’t an opinion piece or some far left anything. Its a local news station breaking a story about their House representative. That negative vote count on basic reality, “Just the facts ma’am” reporting is Blue Maga.
The vote count is negative because people are concerned, rightly, that propagandists, native fascists, and clickbaiting news orgs are pushing a divisive narrative for their own reasons. And they are pushing a divisive narrative - but this one stems from a very real problem that we need to address. Right equation, wrong answer.
At the time, the information pointed towards that. Congress members asking a member of their own party to step down publicly is fucking unprecedented. The advantage of the incumbent is offering unity to the party by providing an unambiguous candidate to rally behind - once the incumbent can’t offer that, he loses much of the advantage that he would otherwise have. As information available to me changed, so too did my view of the best way to move forward.
Bro I hate to break it to you, but nothing about Biden changed from that debate. He's had the slightest, margin of error dip in polling. The reality is that he's been losing this whole time and you've been in complete denial of that.
Biden needed to be at 55% in the aggregate of polling to be cruising to a W comfortably. 50% is tight, but very doable. 45% and Biden is struggling, kind-of landslide losing territory. Biden hasn't polled at 45% in 450 days.
Because of your denial others have become comfortable denying material reality as well, and now down vote anything that doesn't agree with their insane bias that Biden is somehow the best candidate when at no point in the past 450 days has he even been competitive.
YOU helped build that. YOU normalized that. YOU made it acceptable to walk around in abject denial of reality for 6 months and and promoted that others do the same.
Not some one else. YOU.
Its quite fucking literally how r/TheDonald started. Take some fucking responsibility and have some accountability. Fix the damage you caused.
Bro I hate to break it to you, but nothing about Biden changed from that debate.
He lost the confidence of his own party. I believe I mentioned that. Quite prominently. Several times.
He’s had the slighted, margin of error dip in polling.
I didn't say "The polls changed, so I changed my mind." Perhaps you should reread what I wrote.
The reality is that he’s been losing this whole time and you’ve been in complete denial of that.
He was in a bad position, that's not the same as not being our best chance at victory. I believed he was previously despite his poor polling.
He was in a bad position, that’s not the same as not being our best chance at victory. I believed he was previously despite his poor polling.
And you were really, really, really fucking wrong. Wrong in such a way that the net effect has been that you worked to prevent a real conversation about what was happening.
And you were really, really, really fucking wrong. Wrong in such a way that the net effect has been that you worked to prevent a real conversation about what was happening.
Yes. I was really fucking wrong.
I made a call with imperfect information, and I made the wrong one. Fuck, I'm still making a call with imperfect information. I might be wrong now for all I fucking know. All I can do is go forward with all my energy with what I believe to be the correct course of action.
You want me to say that my judgement was subpar in regarding which sources to trust and how to weigh them? That's fair, I won't argue against that, clearly I fucked up. But "You were vocal in the need for unity behind one candidate in a FPTP system, and the one with no real challengers in his party's primary is our only choice" is not one I will apologize for.
Can you also try to help pull people out of the cult-like thinking that has built up around Blue Maga?
I wouldn't call it Blue MAGA, and I find the term stupid. They're operating on inertia, like I was - it's not a cult-like worship of Biden. It's just the belief that he was the best shot.
But yes. I intend on arguing forcefully towards pro-Biden commenters on the need to change candidates now that Biden has lost the unity that an incumbent is supposed to give, especially one who ran in his primary without any major challengers. We've fucked up and now we have to unfuck this mess, fast.
Thank you. Its only by pointing out their denialism around material reality one by one, and fuck its been exhausting work.
Not violating any rule, but the fragile BlueMAGA around here are going to downvote it to hell. This place is getting pretty lame pretty quick.
this post was submitted on 12 Jul 2024
0 points (50.0% liked)
politics
18853 readers
4142 users here now
Welcome to the discussion of US Politics!
Rules:
- Post only links to articles, Title must fairly describe link contents. If your title differs from the site’s, it should only be to add context or be more descriptive. Do not post entire articles in the body or in the comments.
- Articles must be relevant to politics. Links must be to quality and original content. Articles should be worth reading. Clickbait, stub articles, and rehosted or stolen content are not allowed. Check your source for Reliability and Bias here.
- Be civil, No violations of TOS. It’s OK to say the subject of an article is behaving like a (pejorative, pejorative). It’s NOT OK to say another USER is (pejorative). Strong language is fine, just not directed at other members. Engage in good-faith and with respect! This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban.
- No memes, trolling, or low-effort comments. Reposts, misinformation, off-topic, trolling, or offensive.
- Vote based on comment quality, not agreement. This community aims to foster discussion; please reward people for putting effort into articulating their viewpoint, even if you disagree with it.
- No hate speech, slurs, celebrating death, advocating violence, or abusive language. This will result in a ban. Usernames containing racist, or inappropriate slurs will be banned without warning
We ask that the users report any comment or post that violate the rules, to use critical thinking when reading, posting or commenting. Users that post off-topic spam, advocate violence, have multiple comments or posts removed, weaponize reports or violate the code of conduct will be banned.
All posts and comments will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. This means that some content that violates the rules may be allowed, while other content that does not violate the rules may be removed. The moderators retain the right to remove any content and ban users.
That's all the rules!
Civic Links
• Congressional Awards Program
• Library of Congress Legislative Resources
• U.S. House of Representatives
Partnered Communities:
• News
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS