315

Elon Musk’s transgender daughter radically influenced his shift to the right. A lot of trans people have family members like him (www.independent.co.uk)

submitted 3 months ago by jeffw@lemmy.world to c/news@lemmy.world

56 comments fedilink hide all child comments

top 50 comments

sorted by: hot top controversial new old

[-] EleventhHour@lemmy.world 243 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

No no no no NO!

This is some guilt-tripping, gaslighting, deflecting DARVO bullshit, and I won’t have it.

Bigots do not become bigots because of their exposure to “others”. When those of us who are “others” [refuse to tolerate the intolerance of others] (out of principle or justifiable self-defense) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance), their frustration and their lashing-out as a result is not our fault. Nobody can be held responsible for another individual’s lack of emotional self-control.

When people act out with violence, motivated by hate, fear, and ignorance, they are to blame— never the victims.

[-] CaptainEffort@sh.itjust.works 40 points 3 months ago

Someone being at fault for something, and someone unintentionally influencing another, are two separate things.

Family members going down toxic rabbit holes as a response to someone close to them coming out, is just that - a response to someone close to them coming out. It is quite literally cause and effect.

That doesn’t mean that the family member’s bigotry is the person’s problem though, nor should they feel any sense of blame whatsoever.

[-] EleventhHour@lemmy.world 15 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

I’m not talking about causing effect. What I’m saying is that one family members decision to embrace hatred and bigotry is not the fault or the responsibility of the family member who came out of the closet. The family member who decided and made the choice to become a hateful bigot did so of their own accord, and the family member who bravely chose to live as their own self is not to blame for that.

One thing may have led to the other, but that does not mean that one thing inherits responsibility or blame for the other.

t’s not so simple as an assumed reaction as you imply: it’s not one object striking another, transferring energy, and causing the next object to move. This other family member chooses hate and bigotry and then to act on those ideologies and feelings. That is not the same as the simple thing you reference.

[-] CaptainEffort@sh.itjust.works 10 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

What I’m saying is that one family members decision to embrace hatred and bigotry is not the fault or the responsibility of the family member who came out of the closet

Like I said, I completely agree with this. And,

The family member who decided and made the choice to become a hateful bigot did so of their own accord

while true, that chain of events was started when they, bravely, came out. It’s not their problem, nor should they feel any guilt whatsoever, as there’s nothing that they did wrong. But the fact is that the toxic path the family member went down only happened because of that coming out. Literally just cause and effect, it’s factually what happened.

That’s why I say that there’s a difference between someone being at fault for something, and someone unintentionally influencing another. The article simply states that she saw his radicalism start when she came out. Not that her coming out was somehow wrong. She’s literally just stating her truth. Her coming out started him on this path. And, that’s not her fault.

[-] zazo@lemmy.world 7 points 3 months ago

I would argue it isn't direct cause and effect as most likely that member has always harbored those feelings but being confronted with their beliefs is the catalyst that makes them veer into openly bigoted territory.

I think what OP is trying to say is that by claiming LGBTQ+ people coming out is the cause of people's bigotry it will only make them less likely to come out but wouldn't actually reduce the number of bigots in the world. (I know that's probably not the argument you were trying to make, but it's what it sounded like from the outside)

[-] CaptainEffort@sh.itjust.works 2 points 3 months ago

That’s entirely possible, but more than once I’ve seen genuinely great, kind-hearted people get sucked down toxic rabbit holes. Extremely liberal, open people getting slowly warped over time.

Hell, most of the time they don’t even realize it’s happening. I used the example in another comment, but it’s like someone indoctrinated into a cult. They didn’t exit the womb a cultist, this wasn’t always who they were. This happened to them at some point.

load more comments (4 replies)

[-] snooggums@midwest.social 1 points 3 months ago

But the fact is that the toxic path the family member went down only happened because of that coming out. Literally just cause and effect, it’s factually what happened.

"The husband wouldn't have beaten his wife if she didn't burn dinner."

[-] CaptainEffort@sh.itjust.works 1 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

Saying that the husband wouldn’t have beaten her if they hadn’t gotten married is a fact tho.

That doesn’t make it her fault for marrying him, she’s not responsible for his abuse. But the fact that it’s happening due to previous events is simply how the world works.

load more comments (7 replies)

[-] orcrist@lemm.ee 5 points 3 months ago

First of all, what you said was not stated in the article, and it should have been, so they could at least pretend they weren't victim blaming. As it is, they can't even pretend, they're stuck with people like you apologizing for their worthless drivel.

Second, you're speculating that the family members went down toxic rabbit holes as a response. I think it's just as likely that they already went down those rabbit holes, but others didn't know about it, because they didn't have occasion to proclaim their feelings. Which is to say, the damage had already been done, but you didn't know it.

[-] CaptainEffort@sh.itjust.works 1 points 3 months ago

I agree that it should’ve been stated in the article, I’m not apologizing for them not doing so. I’m just reiterating what his daughter’s perception is, and that the reality of that isn’t “wrong”, as it’s entirely possible that his descent, if it was a descent, happened as a result.

Once again, this is literally how she saw things play out. That’s all the information we have, anything else is speculation, including the notion that he was like, born a bigot. Unfortunately these toxic ideas aren’t born with people, they’re infected with them at some point. And like I’ve said, I’ve personally witnessed it happen to genuinely terrific people.

So unless we all plan on ignoring Vivian’s own words, I don’t think there’s much more that can be said. And regardless, none of this was my point anyway. My point was literally that the title of the article isn’t wrong, and that something being caused by another can be possible without anyone being at fault for it.

[-] Lemming6969@lemmy.world 2 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

OP is an idiot. That's like saying exposure to anything doesn't precipitate a response. It does.

His response or change may be directly caused by his experiences. We also have no idea what their interactions were.

[-] CaptainEffort@sh.itjust.works 4 points 3 months ago

I agree, but I don’t think OP is an idiot, imo it’s a totally valid response to have. I mean think of all the people that have come out, had their families lose their minds, and then be directly blamed for it.

Seeing a title like this and assuming that it’s assigning blame, even when its Vivian herself just stating the chain of events, is understandable when this is such a problem in the community.

load more comments (1 replies)

[-] Xeroxchasechase@lemmy.world 2 points 3 months ago

Not enough upvotes for this comment

[-] xantoxis@lemmy.world 194 points 3 months ago

No she didn't.

Elon Musk is what he always was. He wants you to scapegoat his daughter because that's easy for him. He's a piece of shit entirely on his own, don't blame her for his vile nature.

[-] jeffw@lemmy.world 40 points 3 months ago

This article does a poor job of discussing Elon (but that’s not really the point of the article). Vivian has talked about how she felt Elon became more radical as she transitioned. That not blaming her, it’s listening to what she has to say

[-] Scipitie@lemmy.dbzer0.com 25 points 3 months ago

Oh your description is fitting but the headline is... Well I perceive it as poisonous, especially with the knowledge that headlines are often the only thing being read.

[-] borf@lemmynsfw.com 33 points 3 months ago

Classic TERF island headline. "Trans people turn billionaires into conservatives." 🙄

[-] snooggums@midwest.social 163 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

His daughter did not influence him. That makes it sounds like the daughter was the cause of him shifting right.

Musk reacted to the fact that his daughter was trans. His reaction was taking off his mask and being the piece of shit he already was more openly.

Edit: Not sure why I didn't think to include it at the time, but the healine has a real “Husband beat wife because she burnt dinner.” vibe to it.

[-] CaptainEffort@sh.itjust.works 13 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

I think it’s more accurate to say that his reaction led him down toxic rabbit holes that warped his opinions and beliefs into what they are now.

Obviously we’ll never know, but I’ve personally known people who’ve genuinely changed as they got lost down various paths. Someone who’s indoctrinated into a cult, for example, obviously wasn’t indoctrinated as they came out of the womb. They weren’t always like that, it instead happened to them as some point.

[-] crazyminner@lemmy.ml 3 points 3 months ago

This is the correct answer. These people have always been this shitty.

[-] OhStopYellingAtMe@lemmy.world 99 points 3 months ago

Elon Musk’s transgender daughter brought his far-right bigotry to light. A lot of trans people have family members like him.

FTFY

[-] whyNotSquirrel@sh.itjust.works 25 points 3 months ago

Yeah don't blame Elon's stupidity on her!

[-] norimee@lemmy.world 55 points 3 months ago

I'm confused. I don't see any victim blaming in the article. Most of the article is lending a voice to trans/NB people to tell how hard it is, when someone in their family is bigoted and anti trans to begin with and how they, instead of trying to understand, doubled down on their hatred and bigotry and became nasty after they came out.

People do not become right wing bigots, because they have a trans child or cousin. But for some its hard to confront their own bigotry when suddenly the thing they "fear" is in their own backyard. So they react the opposite and burrow down deeper in right wing hatred.

Can we not acknowledge that this is an effect often hapening in right wing families when a family member comes out? That doesnt mean the coming out is at fault. Its bigots doubling down on their bigotry, because they can not, like normal people, reflect on their stance and admit, that maybe they were wrong.

[-] Sconrad122@lemmy.world 9 points 3 months ago

Vivian was victimized by her father's heartless disregard and rejection of her identity. Elon is now going around stating a narrative that her coming out to him is at least a significant contributing reason he is a fascist ("I lost my son to the woke mind virus"), a narrative that this headline plays directly into. You can take the same sequence of facts and headline it as "Musk is going public with the same bigotry that he wielded against his transgender daughter. A lot of trans people have family members like him" that doesn't make it sound like Elon Musk would have been politely building his rockets and evs in a corner if only his daughter hadn't come out as trans, and doesn't make it sound like Vivian indirectly donated 10s of millions of dollars to Trump's 2024 campaign by coming out as someone that that exact campaign wants to suppress. The headline as written is almost a threat to closeted trans people. "Yeah, your parents may be Schrodinger's bigots right now, but come out and they will go full scorched earth to dehumanize you and you will be responsible for their shift".

I'm pretty sure you are agreeing that that isn't the case, and it wouldn't surprise me if the text of the article is also aligned against that message, but the headline (probably written by an editor hungry for rage clicks) is solidly aligned to it, and should be called out for that

load more comments (3 replies)

[-] Nuke_the_whales@lemmy.world 5 points 3 months ago

My dad is very conservative but hates Trump and his racism etc. But he's always been anti LGBT etc cause of religion. Fast forward to now and one of his grand children is trans and the other gay. My siblings and I have taken a stance of "if you don't like it there's the door" and we've given him no option but to accept it unless he wants to die alone. It forced him to at least watch what he says and to shut the fuck up about his opinions he's not willing to change.

[-] Soulg@sh.itjust.works 4 points 3 months ago

Yeah but it's easier to just claim outrage at the click bait title and not read the article tbf

[-] bastion@feddit.nl 1 points 3 months ago

Why get nuanced when you can get owned?

[-] orcrist@lemm.ee 40 points 3 months ago

F*** this article. Don't even read the article. The title says it all.

My summary: "Blame the victim. Blame the trans person for their family member acting a fool. It only got bad after the trans person came out. It's all the trans person's fault."

To hell with that.

[-] MerchantsOfMisery@lemmy.ml 17 points 3 months ago

Exactly my thoughts. Straight up blaming the victim, who was a child at the time of Musk going public with the right wing views he's had for decades.

[-] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 9 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

A child he barely had a relationship with. In her NBC interview, she said that, despite having equal custody, she was with her mother 90% of the time and some of the time with her father was for PR for his companies.

He also tried to get her to be masculine and insulted her for being queer even before she came out.

This is utter bullshit.

[-] MerchantsOfMisery@lemmy.ml 7 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

The guy's a complete clown and I find it funny how conservatives who never stfu about single black mothers give guys like Musk a complete pass, despite the guy having something insane like 11 kids and being such a blatantly obviously absentee father, clearly because he cares more about the pursuit of money and clout than caring for his kids.

[-] Chozo@fedia.io 39 points 3 months ago

I wouldn't say she influenced his extremist views, as much as she shined a light upon them.

load more comments (2 replies)

[-] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 19 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

There has been no shift to the right. He's always been on the right. Just because he makes electric cars doesn't mean he's some ultra-leftie. He saw an opportunity to invest in a promising technology and he did it. Then he threw the public some bones about environmentalism that he doesn't actually care about to make more money.

Also, I, for one, am glad black men have mostly stopped radically influencing white people from public lynchings these days.

[-] Kashmir@midwest.social 16 points 3 months ago

I'm so tired of hearing about this guy.

[-] daniskarma@lemmy.dbzer0.com 13 points 3 months ago

He was always a far right crazo.

[-] dodgy_bagel@lemmy.blahaj.zone 12 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

At last last we found the architect of all of society's woes: Vivian Wilson.

It was the transes all along! (/s)

[-] Facebones@reddthat.com 5 points 3 months ago

Fuck this victim blaming ass headline. Not clicking on it.

[-] nifty@lemmy.world 3 points 3 months ago

I know from some experience that parents eventually make peace with their children for cultural differences like these, at least some of them do

[-] DragonTypeWyvern@midwest.social 20 points 3 months ago

Elon Musk doesn't give a shit about his kids, he's just a weirdo with a breeding fetish.

[-] timewarp@lemmy.world 4 points 3 months ago

Like his dad

load more comments

this post was submitted on 28 Jul 2024

315 points (80.0% liked)

News

23267 readers

3287 users here now

Welcome to the News community!

Rules:

1. Be civil

Attack the argument, not the person. No racism/sexism/bigotry. Good faith argumentation only. This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban. Do not respond to rule-breaking content; report it and move on.

2. All posts should contain a source (url) that is as reliable and unbiased as possible and must only contain one link.

Obvious right or left wing sources will be removed at the mods discretion. We have an actively updated blocklist, which you can see here: https://lemmy.world/post/2246130 if you feel like any website is missing, contact the mods. Supporting links can be added in comments or posted seperately but not to the post body.

3. No bots, spam or self-promotion.

Only approved bots, which follow the guidelines for bots set by the instance, are allowed.

4. Post titles should be the same as the article used as source.

Posts which titles don’t match the source won’t be removed, but the autoMod will notify you, and if your title misrepresents the original article, the post will be deleted. If the site changed their headline, the bot might still contact you, just ignore it, we won’t delete your post.

5. Only recent news is allowed.

Posts must be news from the most recent 30 days.

6. All posts must be news articles.

No opinion pieces, Listicles, editorials or celebrity gossip is allowed. All posts will be judged on a case-by-case basis.

7. No duplicate posts.

If a source you used was already posted by someone else, the autoMod will leave a message. Please remove your post if the autoMod is correct. If the post that matches your post is very old, we refer you to rule 5.

8. Misinformation is prohibited.

Misinformation / propaganda is strictly prohibited. Any comment or post containing or linking to misinformation will be removed. If you feel that your post has been removed in error, credible sources must be provided.

9. No link shorteners.

The auto mod will contact you if a link shortener is detected, please delete your post if they are right.

10. Don't copy entire article in your post body

For copyright reasons, you are not allowed to copy an entire article into your post body. This is an instance wide rule, that is strictly enforced in this community.

founded 1 year ago

MODERATORS

rjc@lemmy.world

Thekingoflorda@lemmy.world

dezmd@lemmy.world

Tenthrow@lemmy.world

JonsJava@lemmy.world

gedaliyah@lemmy.world

Blackbeard@lemmy.world

little_cow@lemmy.world

jeffw@lemmy.world

enu@lemmy.world