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Is The United State Fighting A Proxy War? (lemmy.ml)

submitted 1 month ago by wuphysics87@lemmy.ml to c/asklemmy@lemmy.ml

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As an American, the US participation in the Ukrainian conflict as well as the Palestinian genocide are beyond reproach. Many describe them as proxy wars, but I'm not there yet.

During the Cold War, there was the Afghanistan, Vietnam, South America, Cuba, etc. These were proxy wars because there was a clear adversary on the other side. The Soviet Union.

Now, who is that? Russia? China? Who is "our enemy"? I see it was war is good for business and projection of power.

Am I wrong?

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[-] queermunist@lemmy.ml 26 points 1 month ago

Ukraine is a proxy war against Russia.

Supporting Israel is the point, it's not a proxy.

They need Israel to control North Africa, the Arab Peninsula, and much of West Asia. They need Israel to control the movement of goods and people from Africa into Asia and Europe. They need Israel to control the Red Sea and help project power into the lower Mediterranean. They need Israel as their laboratory for surveillance technology and oppressive systems of control. Israel is the unsinkable aircraft carrier, the most valuable asset the US has. Israel is more important than most US states tbh

[-] Carrolade@lemmy.world 5 points 1 month ago

This betrays a startling lack of awareness of just how extensive US partnerships are across the globe. The US has sent tens of billions of dollars in military and economic aid to Egypt. Close ties with Saudi Arabia. Close ties with Morocco. Most Mediterranean countries are in NATO, actually. This isn't even to speak of our own military bases littered throughout both Africa and the Middle East.

Does anything going from Asia to Africa even go through Israel? I'd think they'd usually take sea routes through the Indian Ocean. Do we really need some unsinkable aircraft carrier anymore when we have literally dozens of our own airstrips all over the region?

That said, I do agree with your first two points. Ukraine is a proxy war, and supporting Israel is the point. Not sure it's actually more important than any actual US territory though.

[-] queermunist@lemmy.ml -1 points 1 month ago

Saudi Arabia actually had consequences after the assassination of Jamal Koshogshi. Minor ones, but still.

Israel will never have consequences. It is just vastly more important - in fact, Israel is a tool to control Egypt and Saudi Arabia in the first place!

[-] Carrolade@lemmy.world -1 points 1 month ago

If Israel was that useful as a tool to control Egypt, sure would like those billions of dollars back...

And I have a feeling they'll have some consequences. We may not all see the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict the same way, I have a feeling you're not aware of any of the Arab atrocities from the early 20th century, before Israel was ever a nation. But this time they've lost a lot of support in the US for the first time in our history, and that will likely have an impact on future political calculations.

[-] queermunist@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

The bipartisan consensus on Israel is ironclad, elections don't matter nearly as much as Israel does to the US empire.

I do no expect anything to change unless Israel, itself, enters a crisis that would require direct boots the ground. That might be the breaking point. Otherwise? Unlimited US/NATO bloc support.

Israel isn't the only tool they need to control the likes of Egypt and Saudi Arabia - they need direct support too, especially Egypt, which would probably be controlled by the Muslim Brotherhood without US support. But, Israel is still critical as part of the broader strategy.

[-] Carrolade@lemmy.world -1 points 1 month ago

I guess you don't think our politicians care which of them are in charge? And I'm not so sure about ironclad, we've withheld aid in past decades.

I really question exactly how Israel has significant influence over Egypt. Much less Saudi Arabia, which isn't even a neighbor and has significantly more wealth and influence than Israel does.

[-] queermunist@lemmy.ml 0 points 1 month ago

Saudi Arabia learned its lesson in the Yom Kippur War. Do not fuck with the USs unsinkable aircraft carrier.

As for Egypt, Israel is extremely important for transporting natural gas and, to a lesser extent, important as a trading partner. They also cooperate on security matters wrt terrorism.

Of course, the US is also very important for ensuring all its other puppets in the region play nice with Israel. Israel, itself, has influence because it is an extension of the US and more important than any mere puppet.

[-] Carrolade@lemmy.world -1 points 1 month ago

The Saudis barely participated in Yom Kippur, from some brief googling they deployed a single battalion that saw a little bit of fighting in the Golan Heights. I honestly wasn't even aware they had participated militarily.

Their much bigger impact was the oil embargo against the US, which caused rather famous gas shortages here and one of the most severe recessions we've ever had, during the Nixon years. Perhaps seeing the rest of the coalition demolished was enough? Though there were clear reasons for the Israeli victory that aren't that difficult to understand. It's far more specific than just Israel strong or something like that. That oil embargo ended up proving the power of OPEC though, dramatically strengthening the Saudi's position on the global stage, which persists to this day.

Regarding NG, the main pipeline through the area for exporting Egyptian NG actually takes some pains to go around Israel, rather than through it.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Gas_Pipeline

[-] sonori@beehaw.org 2 points 1 month ago

I mean Saudi Arabia also does all those things, most of them far better than Israel ever could due to geography, and at a far lower cost. If Isreal snapped out of existence tomorrow, between Saudi Arabia, Iraq, and Greece European and North American power projection in the Middle East and North Africa remains almost entirely unchanged.

Honestly the military benefits of supporting Isreal while real are definitely not as important as the domestic political benefits to the US, which is to say that the conservatives like Isreal because it provides a nice place to deport all the Jews to while also maintaining precedent for an enthnostate with race based citizenship, and the Democrats like it because they get a lot of gifts, friends, and in their minds potential voters, all for doing exactly what the conservatives want them to do.

[-] redrumBot@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 month ago

Israel has been a key USA asset for destabilizing the region from, at leat, the times of Kissinger as secretary of state and to stop socialist panarab projects like then ones of Nasser or the Ba'aths parties.

[-] sonori@beehaw.org 2 points 1 month ago

Yes, but it’s presence in the region being a destabilizing force is a very different thing to being primarily an unsinkable aircraft carrier as the commenter I responded to described it.