per DAY??
this post was submitted on 25 Nov 2024
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I guess when you consider global pop and how many overall die from violence then it makes the number look quite small.
However I think due to the nature of these deaths, committed by a person in the victims life who should be at best a source of protection and safety, it's pretty fucking grim to consider.
What's the number of men and boys killed by intimate partners or family members per day?
Here is the actual report.
An estimated 80 per cent of all homicide victims in 2023 were men while 20 per cent were women, but lethal violence within the family takes a much higher toll on women than men, with almost 60 per cent of all women who were intentionally killed in 2023 being victims of intimate partner/family member homicide.
Taking this 60%, that would mean that about 92.4 men were killed.
I'm not sure on the math there. 20% of homicide were women, with 60% of those 20% being killed from domestic violence. It doesn't directly mention what percentage of men were killed from domestic violence.
Less
Wouldn't that be valuable to the argument, then?
Possibly if they weren't just guessing.
A different conversation. If you want to start that conversation, feel free, but do it in your own post.
The title is worded in a way that implies it’s a gendered issue, so asking for more information about the gender divide is appropriate. I appreciate that other replies have given the numbers to back up the extent to which it’s gendered.
It’s very related, and the answer is found in the same report. Another commenter answered tho.
It’s not unusual to have sideline discussions in a comment thread.
Nah stfu
It's a shame that this data is being presented this poorly, because this is a really important issue that deserves attention. None of the figures presented in the linked article have the proper context to understand them. Even the UN report itself does not present their findings well.
So, for instance, 140 women per day is of course more than the ideal number of zero, but there are billions of people on this planet. To actually quantify the gender imbalance of this number, we need to compare it to the number of men who are victims in the same way. From the report:
Globally, approximately 51,100 women and girls were killed by their intimate partners or other family members [...out of...] 85,000 women and girls killed intentionally during the year [...] In other words, an average of 140 women and girls worldwide lost their lives every day at the hands of their partner or a close relative.
The report does not offer corresponding numbers for male (or non-binary) victims. It does, however, say that 11.8% of male victims and 60.2% of female victims are killed by partners or other family members. It also acknowledges that 80% of all homicide victims are men and 20% women, which is beside the point as this is about domestic violence, but it will allow us to do some math to arrive at numbers to compare against.
- 85,000 * 80/20 = 340,000 men killed total
- 340,000 * 11.8% = 40,120 men killed by partners or family
- so we are comparing 40,120 men with 51,100 women
- women are 27.4% more likely than men to be killed by partners or family.
...which should have been the headline. 27% more is massive! Domestic violence is a huge issue, and women are more likely to suffer from it!
There is no need to obfuscate the numbers to be less honest. The honest numbers themselves are shocking enough, and scientifically literate readers won't dismiss your credibility along with your cause. I look forward to future UN reports communicating these horrifying statistics a bit more clearly.
27% more (while significant) is really low compared to the disproportionate focus on violence against women. It shows 44% of domestic violence victims are ignored by the Istambul convention due to sexism, and even that is assuming the number is accurate (see also pixxelkicks reply).
If we're talking about statistics then from the original report
An estimated 80 per cent of all homicide victims in 2023 were men while 20 per cent were women,
Shouldn't we figure out unequal woman murder rate first? What are they doing better than men if they are 4 times less likely to be murdered at all?
Here's a more general report that delves into your question: https://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/data-and-analysis/global-study-on-homicide.html
By far the biggest reason is that ~70% of those homicides are crime or gang related, and almost all of those are men, which neatly accounts for the disparity.
That of course raises the question, why are men so much more likely to get tangled up in gangs or crime? I'm sure that the sociologists have a more nuanced take, but I'll venture out on a limb and say it's because men are full of dumbassifying hormones. Being immersed in societal peer pressure probably doesn't help, depending on what environment they're in.
Thanks for doing the homework on this.
27pct more is huge.. I would have expected a much higher number though.. both absolute and in percentage.
Consider the following:
A lot of reports of domestic violence for male on male violence is reported as non domestic instead, which contributes to a portion of the perceived gap.
The gap is likely smaller than you think. Its even distinctly likely men are in reality the victims more often (like every other category of violence), but it just doesn't get categorized as domestic because sexism.
Especially since a lot of the victims are often black, which even further biases against them for a domestic incident to get escalated to non domestic (carrying heavier sentences)
It's well known that black men tend to convicted with far heavier sentences than any other demographic for the same crimes.
Sir, my entire thesis was about how important it is to present clear data to substantiate your claims. Not only are you refuting the findings with zero data or sources, you are injecting a racially charged dimension into the mix.
For all we know your arguments could be entirely correct, but you yourself are undermining them by not attempting constructive discourse.
I just assumed the fact that black men get charged with worse penalties on average was well known enough and common knowledge I wouldnt have to sit and gather papers on it.
https://academic.oup.com/bjc/article/64/5/1189/7612940
I mean there's an entulire Wikipedia page with many sources for it, take your pick.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentencing_disparity
The fact that black men make up a disproportionate amount of perpetrators and victims of violence is also extremely well established, because you know... gangs exist
https://www.statista.com/statistics/251877/murder-victims-in-the-us-by-race-ethnicity-and-gender/
In Canada our Indeginious communities have a similiar trend: https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=3510015601
While simultaneously it's also pretty well known that gangs trend to being familial in nature. I hope you won't ask for me to find papers demonstrating how often gang violence tends to be "in family", I don't know how easy that will be to find, but it should be pretty common knowledge that gangs typically revolve around family blood ties.
As a result of all three of these facts, it's extremely easy to see how a considerable chunk of what would be classifiable as male on male domestic violence instead gets classified as non-domestic gang related activity.
Which will make up a non-trivial chunk of that gap you are seeing, very possibly swinging it the opposite direction.
I'd be extremely surprised if men aren't the actual disproportionate victims of domestic violence once you remove racial/cultural biases out. I expect an enormous amount of domestic violence is categorized as non-domestic.
Literally anyone who has paid attention to the news over the past several years should be starkly aware of how intense these biases play out when it comes to cops knocking on doors of domestic violence events, and how way to often it turns into a "justified homicide"
The original article is about global numbers, not just the USA.
These trends are pretty consistent anywhere you look em up.
Homicide is quite rare overall, people due to all sorts of shit, amd very rarely is it homicide.
It's usually heart disease, or cancer, or covid.
And outside diseases, it's usually accidents at home, at work, or on the road.
And outside accidents (and overdoses), it's usually suicide far more often than homicide. (You could classify that as disease again though, depression can be extremely lethal)
Only after all of that do you start talking about homicide, which is the very tiny fraction of deaths left over.
Go look at the obituaries evey single week in your local city, then compare it to how many homicides there were.
My city of about 1 million population averages only 35 homicides per year.
Meanwhile thousands of people are dying per year to illness, accidents, etc.
You are extremely out of touch if you think homicide is the largest threat to women, lol.
Cars alone beat homicide like 3:1
Domestic violence is a huge issue, and women are more likely to suffer from it!
Yes and yes.
and scientifically literate readers won’t dismiss your credibility along with your cause.
No. If you care about women's lives, you'll focus on cancer instead.
Homocide per 100k capita of women (summed the separate numbers on page 9, worldwide): 7.4
Deaths per 100k capita of women just in the USA (listed under "Sex and Race/Ethnicity"): 126
Here's your headline: Women are 1602.70% more likely to die of cancer, than of homicide at home!!!
Now... Homicide bad. very bad. Homicide very bad (self-defence does obviously not count). But compared to some other numbers that are also bad, maybe homicide relatively not that bad.
The thing is, cancer is not a systemic issue. Very few cultures have millenia old excuses to justify (specifically) women dying of cancer.
Things missing from a proper comparison:
- what percentage of female intimate partners
- compared to what percentage of non-female intimate partners?
Please report proper comparisons instead of click-bait numbers.
Even though men and boys account for the vast majority of homicide victims, women and girls continue to be disproportionately affected by lethal violence in the private sphere," the report said.
“An estimated 80% of all homicide victims in 2023 were men while 20% were women, but lethal violence within the family takes a much higher toll on women than men, with almost 60% of all women who were intentionally killed in 2023 being victims of intimate partner/family member homicide,” it said.
So men and boys are dying way more due to violence overall, but as usual people will do whatever it takes to make it look like women are most affected.
Men are dying an order of magnitude more. As long as media keeps ignoring that and trying to twist the numbers to make it look like women have to worse, then you'll never actually make real progress.
You have to acknowledge violence as a whole and not pick and choose what violence "counts" for your cause.
You either are against violence or not, so stop minimizing 80% and making it out to be a non issue, and trying to frame the minority of the violence to be the majority.
How many of those are killed in domestic circumstances, by partners or relatives? While it's true that more men get murdered, femicides are a real and documented issue, and one that will take very different measures to solve from, say, gang violence. Saying you can't talk about one kind of murder without solving all violence is disingenuous, along the lines of the "all lives matter" crowd. Especially so since the article specifically talks about what you're criticizing.
Saying you can’t talk about one kind of murder without solving all violence is disingenuous
Not really, no. Violence doesn't just pop up randomly, it has causes, if you don't look at all the symptoms (types of violence) then you might be missing common causes and with that the best opportunities to actually make inroads.
Like, how many cases of domestic violence are caused by pent-up frustration caused by, reinforced by, and made unaddressable (for the individual) by, capitalism? Fixing that frustration at the source would make "it's not good to be violent with your families" have a much, much greater impact, now it becomes a question of "what's best for my family", not "do I even have the emotional bandwidth to not punch a wall right now".
Always, always, be hypervigilant about reductionism, it's the primary mechanism the, for lack of better term, hivemind uses to repress stuff so it can continue this neurotic BS. Also, eat the rich.
Textbook whataboutism.
There are different solutions to different sources of violence. A holistic approach as you advocate for would include tactical solutions where you look at underlying causes of violence towards specific groups as well as broad strategic solutions to analyze the problem at large.
You can acknowledge violence as a whole while simultaneously understanding that domestic violence affects some groups more than others, and that "solving violence" may require specific approaches to handling domestic abuse.
It's about highlighting domestic abuse that leads to murder ya dingus
Okay, I understand the sentiment behind this comment (and I didn't downvote you), because men's issues are often underrepresented or even ignored (see: rape) in key areas, but consider this (to clarify, this is fake data meant to mirror this article): two UN agencies come out and say that this year, 50,000 gay men have died from AIDS, 2,000 more than last year. AIDS deaths are on the rise. The report notes that even though non-gay men tend to be more affected by chronic illness overall, gay men are disproportionately affected by AIDS.
Or maybe there's a report about how people in South America disproportionately die to a specific kind of insect-transmitted disease, and the UN creates a report on it. They note the vast majority of insect-borne illness deaths are from malaria in Africa, but that this specific disease most affects people in South America.
Would you be here standing up on a podium decrying that the announcement focuses on gay people? Or that it focuses on South America? The point of this finding is that there's an area where someone is disproportionately affected, and unlike just "homicide", a lot more can be done in the short-term to prevent domestic violence.
As another comment noted, this is whataboutism. I don't think it's being done in bad faith, but it's still whataboutism.
When the "disproportion" is only 60% vs 40%, that's a fairly small gap, only a 10% shift.
Enough to be within the realm that it's more likely to just be a reporting problem to swing the other way.
Meanwhile in reality gay men have at times been disproportionately affected by aids on the scale of hundreds to thousands of times worse than other demographics.
So yeah, no, a 10% shift off bias is not actually terribly huge.
Especially when in the same paragraph they acknowledge a 30% shift bias for men in general, and didn't remark on that at all.
To call "50% more likely" a huge issue in one sentence and then skim over "300% more likely as not being noteworthy is fucked up
But no one bats an eye at this because that violence is normalized.
Reducing all kinds of violence to the same Violence(tm) does nothing to address the myriad ways that different kinds of violence happen. All these different kinds of violence makes each kind of violence more manageable that trying to stop Violence(tm). Focusing on different kinds of violence let's us allocate resources and attention and research toward dealing with it.
A domestic assault is a much different kind of violence to 2 drunk guys fighting it out to a mobster telling his underlings to "take someone out." All of these things need/have different things to handle them. Shelters for domestic abuse creates somewhere safe to go, bouncers will break up a fight and kick the brawlers out, for organized crime there RICO legislation.
Stopping All Violence(tm) is too big of a task for any one person or organization to handle.
I don't like violence either, so much of it leads to unnecessary loss of life and limb and innocent bystanders get caught in the crossfire. But lumping all together into Violence(tm) brings us no closer to resolving conflicts before the start or helping people when things do go wrongf
The problem is when articles literally phrase it as if the minority portion of the violence is the majority.
When you do that, you now are minimizing a lot of shit and you've failed.
The problem is when articles literally phrase it as if the minority portion of the violence is the majority.
This is just a lie; the article does no such thing and even expressly emphasizes the exact opposite.
Of the offenders for whom gender was known, 90.3 percent were males.
Is that fucking better for you?
The victims also are primarily men.
Men vs men violence makes up more of the graph then all other pairings combined
Men are the primary victims and offenders of violence, by an incredibly large margin.
Of the 12,996 murder victims in 2010 for which supplemental data were received, most (77.4 percent) were male.
Men are twice to four times as likely to be the victim of murder
But yeah no, it's women that for sure are the "disproportionately affected victims"
It's a lot of bullshit, women are slightly more victims than men, maybe, in specifically domestic violence. And even then the gap is incredibly small.
Meanwhile men are substantially more likely to be the victim in every other category, and those categories dwarf domestic violence by such a huge amount.
But articles will skim over that as a non issue, and will spend paragraphs talking about how women are the real victims here
Of the offenders for whom gender was known, 90.3 percent were males.
Of stats that include "fathers", "husbands", "sons", "boyfriends", etc... You don't see how those stats as you present it is meaningless to the OP's discussion and proves "Men are dying an order of magnitude more."? Men can kill their fathers, husbands, sons, etc...
You're talking about who's doing the killing, not what gender the people who were killed were.
Of the 12,996 murder victims in 2010 for which supplemental data were received, most (77.4 percent) were male
Source: your source.
You're cherry picking really dumb shit. Especially when your own source PROVES the person you're arguing with correct.
Don't get me wrong... What you should have quoted:
Of the female murder victims for whom the relationships to their offenders were known, 37.5 percent were murdered by their husbands or boyfriends. (Based on Expanded Homicide Data Table 2 and 10.)
This is a problem. But that's of the 22.6% of homicides on the table already (removing the 77.4% males), so we're talking about ~8.5% with no given information about what that looks like in the reverse, nor what the Female-Female rates are. That's a loaded stat without the other two being present on the page as well. If raw numbers match or are similar enough... then it's not what you're insinuating it is at all.
The only actually relevant thing you can probably stat with that page is that men kill more women than women kill men. Except that would be expected since Men on average are physically stronger and are more capable of defending against an average Woman. You would expect more "success" in men attempting to kill women, and more "failure" in women attempting to kill men with just that fact alone.
And lastly, since you already omitted data..
Law enforcement reported 665 justifiable homicides in 2010. Of those, law enforcement officers justifiably killed 387 felons, and private citizens justifiably killed 278 people during the commission of a crime.
I bet this also has a directionality to it as well that would need to be applied.
lol