I despised it in World of Warcraft, but I actually loved it in The Witcher 3. How I feel about it seems to be at least somewhat related to whether it’s a singleplayer game or multiplayer. But it’s more complicated than that - in TW3 without scaling enabled the whole game becomes piss easy even on Death March so it’s kinda required for me to even enjoy the gameplay at all. There are still many ways to gain relative character power that exceeds the level scaling that eventually you just WILL overpower everything regardless.

Unless it’s basically broken I will play games on the highest difficulty possible, because that’s just more fun to me. It makes each game an epic saga and something that can grip my (limited) free time for many many months. Which is good, because I have issues picking up and putting down fictional universes, I get a bit too attached. I don’t get super emotional about it, I just really don’t have the mental energy to deeply engage with something new unless I’m truly done with the last big thing. (I am also neuro-non-standard, I have heard of a term for this, “inertia”)

[–] homicidalrobot@lemm.ee 0 points 1 hour ago

CRPG doesn't usually refer to MMOs or action rpgs. They're referring to games that emulate a tabletop RPG but on a computer, which is where the C comes in. Generally they're modeled after Dungeons and Dragons or similar systems, like Pathfinder.

[–] Kolanaki@yiffit.net 12 points 5 hours ago* (last edited 5 hours ago) (1 children)

There is always going to be some kind of level scaling in an RPG. I just think it's a matter of what kind of scaling you're using.

The kind that everything in the world just levels up when you level up fucking sucks. It completely kills any sense of power progression since your power level stays pretty much the same comparatively.

The kind where the enemies are just static levels based on where they are is better. You can still freely go to those areas, you just aren't likely to survive until you actually get stronger. And as you get stronger, you can literally feel the power gains as areas you were getting your ass beat down in have the turn tables and you start beating their asses.

Scaling done by just creating a single archetype and then doing math to it also kinda sucks. It doesn't ruin fun factors, or anything, it just seems lazy. Give the new enemy type it's own stat block instead of just being another guy with bigger number. Unless your game has so many enemies that "same guy, bigger number" is inevitable, I don't like it.

[–] VindictiveJudge@lemmy.world 7 points 5 hours ago (1 children)

Cyberpunk 2077 used the static levels on launch, but changed to almost everything leveling with you in 2.0. I think the change actually worked better for the game, but it's also done differently than every other game I've seen use that approach. Enemies gain stats much slower than V does, so a level 20 V still feels much more powerful than a level 1 V, but you also have the freedom to explore rather than having arbitrary beef gates making it nigh impossible to go to certain parts of the city before you're supposed to.

On the other hand, I also love Morrowind's painstakingly hand-crafted world with static enemies and hand-placed loot. In most games done that way, however, returning to lower level areas is typically a complete waste of time.

Ultimately, I think both systems can work if they're done well, but everything leveling up is almost always done poorly, or at least worse than the average game with static levels.

A system I have thought of before is a hybrid where enemies have a target level and then their actual level is the average of your level and the target level. For instance, if an enemy's target level is 20 and you're level 1, they'll be level 10. You probably won't be able to do much to them. But when you get to level 10, they'll be level 15, which you might be able to deal with if you're good. You'll eventually out-level them, but they'll still be interesting to fight because when you're at level 40 they'll be at level 30. I only make the occasional mod, though, so I've never gotten to test if this actually is fun.

[–] Kolanaki@yiffit.net 3 points 4 hours ago* (last edited 4 hours ago)

Fallout 4 has the hybrid method, and still doesn't get it right 😮‍💨

It scales enemies as it has since Oblivion, but also scales them differently based on how far away from Sanctuary they are spawned. Everything on the southern and eastern side of the map are always gonna be stronger than the player by some degree, while everything close to the starting point is weak, even when it's spawning a stronger variant due to player level.

But to be fair, I don't even see FO4 as an RPG. It's a FPS with minimal RPG elements. So I tend to strip the scaling entirely with mods to make it so humans (including the PC) die quickly and only the big, beefy mutants (super mutants, deathclaws, etc) are bullet sponges.

[–] rockerface@lemm.ee 16 points 8 hours ago (1 children)

Correctly done level scaling should be optional. Like in Dark Souls 2, after you defeat a boss of an area, you can use a special consumable to increase the difficulty of that area to NG+. And it's stackable, too. That was one of DS2 unique mechanics I'm actually sad they didn't add in DS3 and Elden Ring, because sometimes I don't want to restart the whole playthrough in NG+.

[–] tomi000@lemmy.world 3 points 8 hours ago (1 children)

Level scaling is usually used to make development easier, so making it optional would require the extra work to come up with appropriate enemy strength and the eoptional scaling effect on top.

[–] vrighter@discuss.tchncs.de 2 points 7 hours ago

they would need to develop balanced mechanics. Level scaling completely ruins any sense of progression.

[–] emb@lemmy.world 11 points 9 hours ago (1 children)

Don't know about CRPGs in particular, one way or the other. But in general I agree with you op.

If you level up, and it means your stats go up and all your enemies level up and stay at the same balance with you, it's pointless. It still affords a moment of happiness 'cool I levelled up', but in a much less satisfying way.

The point of level up early in RPG video games was, to my knowledge, so that any one with time and patience could beat a game regardless of skill. The idea of level scaling is almost the exact opposite, to remove the advantage of levelling. They cancel out and both player level and enemy level should be removed if that's happening.

That's assuming a 1:1 unversal scaling though, which is rarely the case. In the details it can be tuned to something worthwhile - which enemies scale, how much they scale, etc.

Still, my thought is when games want level scaling, they should consider why. If you want players not to overpower enemies via stats, maybe get rid of the stats (or don't change them on lvl up). Levels can still augment your player with new spells, unique abilities, or more options. Or maybe more carefully consider the placement of enemies and what their default level and stats are set at. Or maybe consider a lower level cap, or a lower range of stat values.

The possibilities are wide open, but level scaling done poorly can make level ups feel like a punishment.

[–] False@lemmy.world 3 points 6 hours ago (1 children)

Leveling systems come from pen and paper D&D, which was inspired from wargames where units gain experience.

[–] Glemek@lemmy.world 3 points 5 hours ago (1 children)

I think the place they are getting the bit about patience from is specifically dragon quest. Where the devs intentionally positioned it in opposition to other games of the time that required you to get good so to speak.

I read an interview a few years ago, I think with Yuji Horii about the design in dragon quest being set up specifically so that by sinking time in you would eventually overpower everything and progress, even if you never improved at the game mechanics. I couldn't easily find it again when I looked to link it but maybe I will be able to later today.

[–] emb@lemmy.world 1 points 21 minutes ago

Yep, that is indeed what I was thinking of (though I don't have a link handy either).

Didn't mean to imply that's where experience levels were invented. The clarification is appreciated though.

And even thought I was alluding to that DQ comment, I'm sure it wasn't the first game to adapt experience levels, and across the board making things easier wasn't always the impetus.

[–] De_Narm@lemmy.world 27 points 11 hours ago* (last edited 8 hours ago)

Level scaling is never fun and never will be, I think. There is no progression if your fights with early enemies are just as hard as they were 50h ago.

You could probably design around that by providing in-depth build options such that optimized builds outscale other entities of the same level. Later game enemies themselves would be optimized better and better. But that's really hard and I've never seen it done. Why even provide a dynamic build for each enemy with each level if you could just have a normal non-scaling progression?

These systems often lead to me avoiding combat altogether. While not exactly a crpg, Oblivion was more fun to me without ever leveling up (which was optional, but made fights kinda pointless).

[–] Lumidaub@feddit.org 20 points 12 hours ago (1 children)

Agreed. I really enjoy being able to one hit enemies that made me shit my trousers a couple of hours ago. The rats I killed for that innkeeper when I arrived shouldn't even be worth my attention during endgame.

[–] spankmonkey@lemmy.world 2 points 5 hours ago

That could also be done by having improved techniques to quickly dispatch the rats without needing to also scale up the character's toughness so their bites are less effective.

[–] celeste@kbin.earth 7 points 10 hours ago

It's generally implemented in a way that takes away fun. If a game had fun fights that were always intended to be strategic, it'd be ok, but when you have to kill identical mob after identical mob to progress in the plot, i don't see the point.

i remember getting bored and annoyed near the end of oblivion.

[–] nesc@lemmy.cafe 15 points 12 hours ago* (last edited 12 hours ago)

It depends. When done correctly it can be fun, if all creatures/enemies are always scaled to your level, no. Dragon monsters for example should always pose a challenge or some kind of monsters that are you mirror images/copies, that type of thing. Maybe it's your rival or someone that has far more experience then you do, why wouldn't their level also grow?

[–] sheogorath@lemmy.world 7 points 12 hours ago (2 children)

What CRPGs have level scaling? I think almost every CRPG that I played doesn't have any level scaling.

[–] Quetzalcutlass@lemmy.world 18 points 10 hours ago* (last edited 10 hours ago) (1 children)

The Elder Scrolls, infamously. Since they are open-world games, they use heavy level scaling so you can explore wherever you want from the very beginning.

It was alright in Morrowind. There, your level just controlled which enemies appeared, so you wouldn't encounter high-tier daedra in the overworld until your level was in the teens and you actually stood a chance.

Oblivion utterly fucked it up by having everything scale to your level. You could revisit the starting area and a normal bandit would be wearing a full set of magical heavy plate worth tens of thousands of gold while demanding you hand over twenty coins to pass. Combine that with a weird player leveling system that punished you for picking non-combat skills or leveling up as soon as you could, and people loathed Oblivion's leveling mechanics.

Skyrim's scaling was somewhere in the middle, which lead to combat being inoffensively bland the whole way through.

[–] ZeroHora@lemmy.ml 5 points 10 hours ago (1 children)

TES is CRPG? I always consider it more of an ARPG

[–] Quetzalcutlass@lemmy.world 7 points 9 hours ago (1 children)

It's in a weird halfway position, though it's less cRPG and more action RPG with each iteration. The character creation in Daggerfall wouldn't be out of place in a tabletop game.

[–] ZeroHora@lemmy.ml 4 points 9 hours ago

Fair enough, morrowind had some things of a CRPG like a chance of miss your hit, both TES and Fallout became less CRPG

[–] Poopfeast420@discuss.tchncs.de 7 points 11 hours ago* (last edited 11 hours ago)

The only one I know that might fit the bill (not really) is Pillars 1. When you've done a lot of the side content, you'll be overleveled, and in the final act the game asks you if enemies should get scaled to your level, so there's still a challenge. But that's still optional and you're not forced to do it.

[–] evilcultist@sh.itjust.works 1 points 10 hours ago

I like it, but only as an alternative to very good balancing with very slow power scaling. Unless I’m playing a superhero game, I don’t want to one-shot starting enemies once I’m higher level.

This is all tied to my preference for immersion above all and my tendency to fiddle around in a game pretending I’m playing a TTRPG rather than rushing to the end.

[–] EncryptKeeper@lemmy.world -1 points 8 hours ago (1 children)

Something that’s being heavily overlooked in this thread is the difference between a CRPG and an RPG/ARPG. I’m not sure which one OP is referring to, but if you want an easy guide, Fallout 1-2 are CRPGs, Fallouts 3-4 are not. Skyrim, the Witcher, latter Assassin’s Creed games, Elden Ring, etc are not CRPGS. Games like Divinity Original Sin 1-2, Baldurs Gate 3, Pillars of Eternity, Pathfinder, etc are CRPGS

[–] Kelly@lemmy.world 2 points 5 hours ago* (last edited 4 hours ago) (1 children)

I'm not sure I agree.

Claiming that Skyrim is not a Computer Role Playing Game requires some supporting reasoning.

Something like the Berlin Interpretation might help but as it is we don't know which features you use feel qualify/disqualify a title for inclusion.

[–] EncryptKeeper@lemmy.world 1 points 4 hours ago* (last edited 4 hours ago) (1 children)

A CRPG is the video game sister-genre of the table top role playing game.

“Computer Role Playing Game” doesn’t mean “A Role Playing Game that’s on the Computer”, the word computer is used here specifically to distinguish it from tabletop, meaning it’s intrinsically tied to tabletop RPGs.

So if a game plays with very similar mechanics to a tabletop rpg (Turn based, tile or distance based movement, top down or isometric views, unique player-created characters, plus the other hallmarks of the greater RPG genre), then you can call it a CRPG. Games like XCom are closer to being CRPGs than the likes of Skyrim, though it wouldn’t itself qualify because it’s not an RPG.

Games like Skyrim are well established in the “Action RPG” genre which is intentionally distinct from the CRPG genre so the burden of supportive evidence and reasoning would really be on you to try and make the claim that Skyrim is a CRPG.

Wikipedias list of video game genres has a brief distinction explanation. The most important being turn-based vs real time combat.

[–] Kelly@lemmy.world 1 points 3 hours ago (1 children)

Thanks for presenting your rational, its well reasoned within the definitions you give.

However the definitions might not be as universality accepted as we might like, for example this presents CRPG as synonymous with "role-playing video game" with ARPGs, TRPGs, MMORPGs, etc as subgenres.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role-playing_video_game

[–] EncryptKeeper@lemmy.world 1 points 2 hours ago* (last edited 2 hours ago)

The distinction is very much universally accepted. The reason CRPG is used synonymously with RPG in that article title is because CRPGs were at the time of their inception what an RPG was. You can tell by reading the introductory description and the characteristics section that what is being described and named are tabletop-like CRPGs specifically.

You’ll notice that in the section that defines ARPGs that they’re referred to as a hybrid genre. They are related to CRPGs which is why they’re on the page, as they borrow elements from CRPGs but they are their own genre that by that hybridization are distinct from the traditional CRPG.

This is reinforced by the Wiki link I sent you which is a more cut and dried succinct list of game genres, where it lists ARPGs and CRPGs as two distinct genres.