yogthos

I don't care about moralizing. Not being an utter psychopath, I want to avoid wars and people dying. NATO created the conditions for war through it's actions over many decades since the dissolution of USSR. Now hundreds of thousands of people died, while sickos living in NATO countries continue to cheers this on.

Look at a map sometime and learn a bit of history. Finland borders a very difficult forested terrain, and Russia has never been invaded through Finland. However, Russia has been invaded multiple times through Ukraine.

I love just how mad these lost redditors get when they're confronted with the real world

🤡

Ukraine had NATO personnel and weapons in it since 2014, and NATO countries declared that Ukraine would get a formal invitation. That's what led to the war as Stoltenberg has now publicly acknowledged.

why'd you delete that clown, it was pretty funny

Russia has a nuclear deterrent. It doesn’t need a buffer state. This isn’t the 1890s.

A nuclear tipped missile can hit Moscow from Ukraine in under 5 minutes clown. If you think Russia would ever allow that, you're even dumber than I thought. We also know that the US would never allow anything like this either, hence why the Cuban missile crisis happened.

Countries have a right to self determination.

Self determination is a funny way to describe having your democratically elected government overthrown in a violent western backed coup.

The number one driver of NATO expansion is Russian aggression.

LMFAO

I'm not the one making idiotic claims at odds with reality. You said Russian red lines have been crossed, it's on you to link to official Russian statements outlining the red lines you claim have been crossed.

Talking about justifying things is just a way to do moralizing. The way to avoid conflicts is by developing understanding for the interests and concerns of different nations, and treating one another with respect. After the fall of USSR, the west decided that it can ignore Russia's security concerns and keep pushing an aggressive military alliance onto Russian borders. That's what caused the war.

Plenty of western experts have been warning about this for decades on end. This only became controversial to mention after the war started. Here's what Chomsky has to say on the issue recently:

https://truthout.org/articles/us-approach-to-ukraine-and-russia-has-left-the-domain-of-rational-discourse/

https://truthout.org/articles/noam-chomsky-us-military-escalation-against-russia-would-have-no-victors/

50 prominent foreign policy experts (former senators, military officers, diplomats, etc.) sent an open letter to Clinton outlining their opposition to NATO expansion back in 1997:

George Kennan, arguably America's greatest ever foreign policy strategist, the architect of the U.S. cold war strategy warned that NATO expansion was a "tragic mistake" that ought to ultimately provoke a "bad reaction from Russia" back in 1998.

Jack F. Matlock Jr., US Ambassador to the Soviet Union from 1987-1991, warning in 1997 that NATO expansion was "the most profound strategic blunder, [encouraging] a chain of events that could produce the most serious security threat [...] since the Soviet Union collapsed"

Even Gorbachev warned about this. All these experts were marginalized, silenced, and ignored. Yet, now people are trying to rewrite history and pretend that Russia attacked Ukraine out of the blue and completely unprovoked.

I did, but you just keep ignoring it. However, since you keep insisting I'll link some more as was widely reported by western media. The fact that you keep pretending they don't exist shows that you're a liar.

• Let's start with language laws as reported by HRW https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/01/19/new-language-requirement-raises-concerns-ukraine
• the ban of of political parties on the left https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/20/ukraine-suspends-11-political-parties-with-links-to-russia
• ban of independent media https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/18/world/europe/ukraine-press-freedom.html
• cancellation of elections
• use of banned weapons on civilians https://www.hrw.org/news/2014/10/20/ukraine-widespread-use-cluster-munitions
• Ethnic cleansing in Donbas https://youtube.com/watch?v=bN68OfFKaWs

And of course, then there are nazis running rampant in Ukraine including the highest levels of government

• Gravel Institute https://web.archive.org/web/20220329174945/https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtOx6dW_0vU
• https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/neo-nazis-far-right-ukraine/
• https://www.researchgate.net/publication/299383810_The_Separatist_War_in_Donbas_A_Violent_Break-up_of_Ukraine
• https://jacobinmag.com/2022/02/maidan-protests-neo-nazis-russia-nato-crimea
• https://www.internationalmagz.com/articles/conversation-with-dmitri-kovalevich

Any non-russian sources for that claim?

Plenty, even Nuland has admitted this just recently https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HiS2dg_atfc

Ukrainian negotiators confirmed it https://www.aaronmate.net/p/ukraines-top-negotiator-confirms

Arestovich confirmed it it https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineRussiaReport/comments/1975okx/ua_pov_arestovich_in_english_says_he_and_the_rest/

A member of the negotiating team confirming this https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2023/11/24/7430282/

The fact that you don't know this shows what an utter ignoramus you are. I guess one has to be to ally himself with fascists.

And no, the war would not be over, you’d have guerilla war for decades. You understand nothing of Slavic mentality nor know nothing of the history of the region.

Both my parents were born in Ukraine you sad troll, I think I understand Slavic mentality perfectly well. Something ignorant nazi boot lickers such as yourself will never understand.

Any non-russian sources for that claim? And no, the war would not be over, you’d have guerilla war for decades.

There won't be any guerrilla war for decades because all the fascists you love so much have gone to die on the front already or fled the country. At this point the fascist regime you support is reduced to kidnapping people off the street and gang pressing them to fight.

Finally, let me educate you a bit on Ukraine since you're utterly clueless about it. It was cobbled together by USSR and eastern parts of Ukraine were part of Russia, and are inhabited by Russian speaking people who see themselves as Russian. Again, don't take my word for it. We can take a look at a few slides from this lecture that Mearsheimer gave back in 2015 to get a bit of background on the subject. Mearsheimer is certainly not pro Russian in any sense, and a proponent of US global hegemony. First, here's the demographic breakdown of Ukraine:

here's how the election in 2004 went:

this is the 2010 election:

As we can clearly see from the voting patterns in both elections, the country is divided exactly across the current line of conflict. Furthermore, a survey conducted in 2015 further shows that there is a sharp division between people of eastern and western Ukraine on which economic bloc they would rather belong to:

Ukraine is not some homogeneous blob, but a large country with complex cultural and ethnic situations. Most people outside western parts of Ukraine never wanted this war, and they just want the war to end. The way this all ends is that everything except the nationalist rump state will be absorbed into Russia and then Europe will be left to deal with the remaining far right nationalist who will feel betrayed by you lot, and who have been making contacts with fascists all across Europe this whole time, sending them all the weapons that disappeared. Enjoy what's coming to you.

The civil war in Ukraine started in 2014 after a violent coup sponsored by the west. Meanwhile, you can stop lying because Stoltenberg already let the cat out of the bag. NATO was in Ukraine since 2014

The other thing I will say is that the war didn't start in February last year. The war started in 2014. And since 2014, NATO Allies have provided support to Ukraine, with training, with equipment, so the Ukrainian Armed Forces were much stronger in 2022, than they were in 2020, and 2014. And of course, that made a huge difference when President Putin decided to attack Ukraine.

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_211698.htm

and the war started because NATO insisted on expanding into Ukraine

He wanted us to sign that promise, never to enlarge NATO. He wanted us to remove our military infrastructure in all Allies that have joined NATO since 1997, meaning half of NATO, all the Central and Eastern Europe, we should remove NATO from that part of our Alliance, introducing some kind of B, or second class membership. We rejected that. So he went to war to prevent NATO, more NATO, close to his borders. He has got the exact opposite.

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_218172.htm

time to update your script and get some new talking points

Amazing counterpoint. Do feel free to take your valuable time away from licking Washington urinals to link to Russian statements about red lines that have been crossed.