this post was submitted on 20 Oct 2024
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Can we please call mental problems what they are?
You can have mental problems while also being an asshole.
That's ultimately a question of determinism, free will and whether it counts as "being an asshole" if you literally can't behave otherwise in cases highlighted as the reason.
For example, when a person with PDA doesn't do something especially when asked to, is it being an asshole?
Or when a narcissistic person refused to do anything that implies they've done something wrong before, and does the opposite maybe?
Or when a person with ADHD doesn't behave the way it's convenient for people around them?
Most people who called me an asshole in my life refused to understand that I don't want their social dynamics and discourses, I just want to discuss the particular question, literally. Not as part of finding some in-group and saying bad things towards some out-group, but literally to clarify the specific question. Well, and also some of them demanded respect they didn't deserve. That is, they were assholes, but I'm not sure you would agree, because you are likely not autistic and won't understand me.
I also have been rather hostile in situations making me recall my past wounds. Maybe I was an asshole, and maybe the other person could have been more considerate.
This is all subjective, the situation here is that from the description she clearly perceived what others said and did not as intended to be perceived. Case closed.
Speaking of mental problems. You need to take a chill pill bro, why are you being so standoffish? This is a public discussion forum, not everyone is going to agree with you.
Cause I know what I'm talking about, unlike some who just want to shit on a person from some article they don't personally know. Also the particular comment you are answering is chill enough.
So the bar for you is generally knowing a non-zero amount of things about mental disorders but for others in this thread it’s having to know the person from the article?
Setting yourself up for an easy win by default there, smart. What’s not smart is apparently assuming you’re the only one in this thread that is even faintly familiar with mental disorders and therefore others must bow to your subjective opinion.
You don’t have to know any particular person to know that having a mental disorder doesn’t magically un-asshole them or shield them from all criticism; origin from disorder is an explanation, not an excuse. I know I’d never expect, or frankly want, anyone to suffer my presence if one of my many oddities caused them some kind of significant distress.
I've read your comment and found nothing worth an answer.
Luckily nothing was asked, no answer was sought.
Then it's unclear why would you fart out your personality to me.
Not everything has an answer and not everything needs to be answered. Given that you think subjective opinion is either objectively right or wrong, it’s incredibly obvious that the idea that someone would give opinion for consideration rather than argument is lost on you.
Your idea that mental disorders, and one’s opinion of it, constitutes a personality might have something to do with it.
...so, do you have a mental problem or you're just being an asshole?
Both and neither
Oh, so you know this lady and aren't presuming and making assumptions in exactly the same way as everyone else?
Yes, I'm using the information given in the article and choose to not make assumptions outside of that.
I'm also not making moral judgements about her, only about people in the comments showing themselves.
Why is some who's "demanding respect they don't deserve" an asshole as opposed to just someone who's suffering from mental problems that make them act that way?
Free will and responsibility.
So the mentally ill have no agency? A person with autism is no better than an animal, unable to rise above their condition in any way?
It seems to me that proclivity is an explanation, not an excuse. The same way that upbringing or bad influences are an explanation, not an excuse.
A person with autism is not mentally ill, first of all. We have a few functions reduced or working differently, but in general autistic people are, ahem, kinda stable. You can live as an autistic person without treatment for all your life and be kinda adequate. Though one could also say that about narcissists.
People do have agency, but if a person is disabled in some way, their agency is reduced in those specific ways. A person with schizophrenia paranoid type has reduced agency when they are falsely accusing someone of taking their stuff or trying to poison them, for example.
Similar to how it doesn't make sense to hate a blind person for not seeing something or a person without a hand for not helping someone out of a pit, I dunno.
Getting back to autism, yes, I don't think it makes sense to expect social respect or conformism from autistic people and get angry for not getting them, or try to put autistic people in a hierarchy. Autistic people simply exist outside those. Seeing that something exists and being able to imitate it consciously is not the same as being capable. Autistic people should not be expected to obey common hierarchy or group dynamics, because it requires too much effort with nothing good for it.
And getting back to narcissism and schizophrenia, read the article again if you need - the description of her behavior seems very similar to those.
Okay, first, autism is in the DSM. It's just as much a mental illness as bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, or any other thing in the DSM.
And to be clear, as with literally any other mental illness in the DSM, you can be affected by it to different degrees. The autism banner isn't just the people who struggle with social cues. It covers everything from that to people who are non-verbal and can't leave their house by themselves.
All that said, it feels to me like you're drawing the lines in the sand where they make you feel good, not where they make objective sense.
It feels like you're saying that we shouldn't hold autistic people accountable for being a particular type of asshole because they "just can't understand." That's dehumanizing my guy. I know a lot of autistic people. The vast majority of them have learned good social etiquette. Is it harder for them? Sure. Are they always perfect? No. But they recognize that to be a good member of society they'll have to work harder in some areas to overcome certain things.
It's not about hating a blind person because they can't see. It's about hating a blind person for repeatedly and unapologetically kicking you in the shins. The solution to reduced capacity isn't to ignore and excuse it. It's to be understanding and patient as they do the work to overcome it.
There are plenty of people with narcissism or schizophrenia who are excellent, fully functioning members of society who are just as good of people as you or I. Who love their friends and neighbors and don't lean on their condition as an excuse for their behavior. Is it a god-aweful amount of work and introspection to do so? Absolutely. Is it easy? Absolutely not. But they have agency the same as you or me. The same as someone with autism. But some people choose to overcome. Some choose to embrace the treatments and therapies needed to allow them to be a good neighbor and friend and citizen. And they have the agency to do so.
Because certain kind of assholes have conditioned them to do that.
No, I don't think your analogy is applicable to the post this started with, and I think mine is.
I'm well aware of that.
I don't think you are going to come up with anything to change my mind on the person in the post, and the commenters' reactions. So let's not continue this.
I have an personality disorder (avoidant with paranoid and schizoid aspects).
Even if i strongly feel stuff that is not adequate to the situation (which is every single social interaction), it is still my responsibility to decide if i act on those emotions or not.
It is also my own responsibility to get help for my issues, which means that i have had weekly therapy sessions for years now, and i don't think i will ever stop going.
I do not act on my irratonal impulses, which shows that most people with mental disorders have the choice if they wanna be an asshole or not. A person with enough stability to file 40 court cases - which would just overwhelm me, there's no chance in hell that i would do something like that - is stable enough to start therapy and stop themselves from shit like that. Case closed.
No, how you act doesn't show anything about others, and your own issues being manageable or allowing choice don't show anything about others' issues.
Being an asshole is a mental problem in the literal sense. If you mean the thing more commonly known as a "mental problem", then no, we can't because we don't have access to her diagnosis.
You know why "retard" is offensive nowadays, even though it literally means "slow" which is a pretty nice word to use? Because people overused it to mean whatever they wanted and, unsurprisingly, people stopped liking it. Don't do the same for "mental problems".
A bullshit argument. Mental health is as imperfect as all the other matters of health, even more. People can get many different diagnoses until getting the right one FFS. People may not get any at all.
Most situations when somebody behaves clearly "weird" are about mental health. Definitely when they can be described as "conspiracy-minded".
You know, I'm using it right. The post we are arguing under describes this clear enough. The word "retard" got misused by people like you, not like me.
And no, what I'm doing is better than what you are doing.
I fucking hate NT's who treat the behavior of others by their own measure and then find 100 excuses to not just give people some chance, especially since their judgement is worth less than that of cockroaches ; more than that, they also judge against those others when there is any ambiguity and think it's fine.
Most autistic people (especially those who weren't homeschooled) have had the experience of people around them refusing to accept the fact that they are autistic, because it's much easier and more pleasant for NT's to think that someone is below you in hierarchy and\or just weak and\or worse than you as a person, and not outside of said hierarchy. I just want you to understand that your opinion on that doesn't count. Life is complex and many people don't have a diagnosis till rather late in life.
But then not being autistic - one can call it your own mental problems - you may not be able to.
How would you differentiate "someone with mental problems" from "someone who behaves in a way that is opposed to what I believe is 'right'"?
If I can see it, by whether they are capable to recognize reality and whether they act compulsively or may the wrong choice.