this post was submitted on 24 Oct 2024

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Why are so many Pro-Palestine (I am pro-Palestine and anti-genocide) Americans refusing to vote for Harris due to her stance on Israel? (discuss.tchncs.de)

submitted 4 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) by dependencyinjection@discuss.tchncs.de to c/asklemmy@lemmy.ml

651 comments fedilink hide all child comments

As the title states I am confused on this matter. The way I see it, the USA has a two party system and in the next few weeks they’re either going to have Trump or Harris as president, come inauguration day. With this in mind doesn’t it make sense to vote for the person least likely to escalate the situation even more.

Giving your vote to an independent or worse not voting at all, just gives more of a chance for Trump to win the election and then who knows what crazy stuff he will allow, or encourage, Israel to get away with.

I really don’t get the logic. As sure nobody wants to vote for a party allowing these heinous crimes to be committed, but given you’re getting one of them shouldn’t you be voting for the one that will be the least horrible of the two.

Please don’t come at me with pro-Israeli rhetoric as this isn’t the post for that, I’m asking about why people would make such choices and I’m not up for debate on the Middle East, on this post, you can DM me for that.

Edit: Bedtime here now so will respond to incoming comments in the morning, love starting the day with an inbox full 😊.

Edit 2: This blew up, it’s a little overwhelming right now but I do intent on replying to everybody that took the time to comment. Just need to get in the right headspace.

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[–] dependencyinjection@discuss.tchncs.de 50 points 4 weeks ago (4 children)

Good point. Although, I would question whether Lemmy is such a place as we really don’t have the numbers to warrant the effort, imo.

[–] CameronDev@programming.dev 55 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

We get drug spam and stock spam, no reason to expect that political spam is any less likely.

Lemmy has a huge amount of hardcore lefty's. If you can get them to not vote, and especially if you can get them to tell their friends not to vote, that is a big win.

Astroturfing/sockpuppeting is dirty cheap to do, so no reason not to try.

You do see some users here that will post continously on about a certain topic repeatedly, with no other opinions. They might be legit, but I have my suspicions.

[–] TheOubliette@lemmy.ml 20 points 4 weeks ago

"Hardcore lefties" have a very different understanding of the value of their vote, which is to say, it means very little.

Have you deigned to ask them questions?

[–] davel@lemmy.ml 13 points 4 weeks ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago) (1 children)

It is not currently such a place. I’ve yet to hear a Lemmy admin say otherwise.

Edit to add: Russiagate conspiracy theorists want it to be true so they can simply dismiss voices that contradict their beliefs.

[–] Zpiritual@lemm.ee 3 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

I've seen cryptospam, drugspam, generic adspam on here. Why would a political astroturfspam be a conspiracy theory?

[–] davel@lemmy.ml 8 points 4 weeks ago

It does exist. It just doesn’t currently exist here, and Russian/Chinese/Iranian bots 1) hardly exist at all and 2) so far have had virtually no effect.

The reason people are seeing $evil_country bots everywhere is because our own government and our own corporate media tell us they are everywhere, not because they are everywhere. The propaganda is coming from inside the house. They’ve spent the last seven years and who knows how much money trying to convince us of. They’re trying to manufacture our consent to censorship.

They tell us what opinions are $evil_dictator talking points so we know what opinions to dismiss out of hand, and to see the people & organizations that express those opinions as malevolent foreign agents, so we never listen to them again. They’re training us to do some of the censoring for them.

The first step is to understand the media and propaganda.

I linked upthread about this specific propaganda campaign, but since people don’t click links, I’ll copypasta myself.

IT Pro: Cambridge Analytica models were exaggerated and ineffective, [UK Information Commissioner’s Office] claims

Wall Street Journal: Mueller Doesn’t Find Trump Campaign Conspired With Russia

Jacobin: Democrats and Mainstream Media Were the Real Kremlin Assets

Washington Post: FEC fines DNC, Clinton for violating rules in funding Steele dossier

Washington Post: Russian trolls on Twitter had little influence on 2016 voters

Jacobin: It Turns Out Hillary Clinton, Not Russian Bots, Lost the 2016 Election

Matt Taibbi: Move Over, Jayson Blair: Meet Hamilton 68, the New King of Media Fraud The Twitter Files reveal that one of the most common news sources of the Trump era was a scam, making ordinary American political conversations look like Russian spywork

Jacobin: Why the Twitter Files Are in Fact a Big Deal On the Left, there’s been a temptation to dismiss the revelations about Twitter’s internal censorship system that have emerged from the so-called Twitter Files project. But that would be a mistake: the news is important and the details are alarming.

MSNBC Repeats Hamilton 68 Lies 279 Times in 11 Minutes

Jeff Gerth at Columbia Journalism Review on Russiagate: Editor's Note | Part one | Part two | Part three | Part four

Matt Taibbi: WMD, Part II: CIA "Cooked The Intelligence" To Hide That Russia Favored Clinton, Not Trump In 2016

Chris Hedges: Why Russiagate Won’t Go Away

[–] Kit@lemmy.blahaj.zone 13 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

I disagree - it feels like Lemmy is seeing the same kind of shills that 4chan saw in the last several elections. These bad actors are trying to sway dems to vote third party or not vote at all "in protest" across many small and large online spaces.

[–] TheOubliette@lemmy.ml 8 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

Are the shills in the room with us right now?

[–] Kit@lemmy.blahaj.zone 10 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

Yes, in fact I see one now.

[–] TheOubliette@lemmy.ml 10 points 4 weeks ago (2 children)

Interesting. What am I shilling for? What are my real opinions? What are the fake ones I'm presenting?

[–] davel@lemmy.ml 18 points 4 weeks ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago)

Your real opinions are the ones I like, and your fake opinions are the ones I don’t. It’s not rocket surgery.

[+] davidgro@lemmy.world -12 points 4 weeks ago (2 children)

Obviously a huge genocide isn't enough for you - you clearly want Every Palestinian to be killed or imprisoned when Trump is elected. And not just the ones in Gaza, if I were a Palestinian in the US, I'd be terrified of that madman winning, and I'd do everything I could to support Harris like my life depended on it (because it very well might)

More generally you are trying to convince us that the genocide is the only important issue in the world, and that it's somehow worth not supporting someone who is in all ways (not just all other) the far better of the two electable candidates.

[–] TheOubliette@lemmy.ml 6 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

Obviously a huge genocide isn't enough for you - you clearly want Every Palestinian to be killed or imprisoned when Trump is elected.

Please do your best to act in good faith and not lie about me.

And not just the ones in Gaza, if I were a Palestinian in the US, I'd be terrified of that madman winning, and I'd do everything I could to support Harris like my life depended on it (because it very well might)

No, that is what you, a non-Palestinian, believe you get to decide for Palestinians, people who have lost half or more of their family in the last year. The Palestinian diaspira, generally speaking, rejects Biden and Harris.

However, you have not answered my questions.

More generally you are trying to convince us that the genocide is the only important issue in the world, and that it's somehow worth not supporting someone who is in all ways (not just all other) the far better of the two electable candidates.

Now you are downplaying the magnitude of genocide. Never again means never again for anyone, not just when it is politically convenient for you.

Welp, looks like you didn't answer my questions. Maybe next time, right?

[+] davidgro@lemmy.world -7 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

To be lies or even bad faith, I'd have to not actually believe what I wrote. And I very much believe what I wrote.

The Palestinian diaspira [sic], generally speaking, rejects Biden and Harris.

Do they now? (A small sample. Some of those are about the ones still in Gaza, but I don't think that detracts from the point.)

However, you have not answered my questions.

Fine. Here are your questions and my genuine answers.

What am I shilling for?

I think you are likely a shill for Donald Trump. I don't assume it's directly, as in I don't assume you are being paid by the GOP or a super PAC, but wouldn't be surprised if someone was paying you.

What are my real opinions?

Hard to say. At best (unlikely) I think you have been very strongly misled into thinking that's somehow what's best for the country, or even the world. Otherwise I think you know fully what you are doing and the damage it may cause and you are fine with that. This is what I believe based on the comments I've seen from you.

What are the fake ones I'm presenting?

That you care about the genocide. I think you are using it as a wedge to try to divide and mute the Democrat vote.

Now you are downplaying the magnitude of genocide.

Not at all. That was the first thing I addressed: if Harris loses it will be so much worse in Gaza and elsewhere.

[–] TheOubliette@lemmy.ml 3 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

To be lies or even bad faith, I'd have to not actually believe what I wrote. And I very much believe what I wrote.

Given that you simply made up some bullshit, telling me that you actually really believe it would mean you have basically no grasp on reality. You can't tell the difference between your imagination and what's real, allegedly.

Personally, I think you do know the difference.

Do

A handful of somewhat misleadingly presented quotes from people selected through an unstated process. Literally no context for who most of them are. Many if the quotes have little to do with what you are talkjng about. And then a series of unsourced narratives about what people are thinking.

This is an incoherent read that follows a particular propaganda style but mostly comes across as incompetent.

they

"An informal canvasing in Gaza".

This follows the same style but by a more competent writer. It is timed for the "honeymoon" period PR push for Harris.

now?

Democrats organized a letter from a handful of people, some of which were Pslestinian Americans. Amazing. The article does not even link the letter. Here is the link. Note that they included "Progressive Democrats" and "Community Leaders". Perhaps you are unfamiliar with tokenizing PR strategies. If you look into the signatories, you will find an array of Democratic Party functionaries either working for the Party itself, an elected official of the party, or someone at the top of a Democratic Party - associated NGO. Far from a representation of community, this is the usual suspects in a PR push from party formations. They do this for all kinds of things.

It is like this is your first time learning about journalism and PR.

I think you are likely a shill for Donald Trump. I don't assume it's directly, as in I don't assume you are being paid by the GOP or a super PAC, but wouldn't be surprised if someone was paying you.

Ahahahahahaha

Hard to say.

Then by definition I am not a shill.

That you care about the genocide. I think you are using it as a wedge to try to divide and mute the Democrat vote.

I work against the genocide and have for over a year, doing organizing work. Folks like yourself have been excysing and normalizing genocide because your team is doing it.

So, wrong on all counts. Damn, did you know that words mean things and pulling things out of your as isn't knowledge?

Not at all. That was the first thing I addressed: if Harris loses it will be so much worse in Gaza and elsewhere.

You did literally diwnplay the genocide, trying to say it is just one issue among many and that I'm being silly to make such a big deal out of it.

Begone, liar for genocide.

[–] davidgro@lemmy.world -5 points 4 weeks ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago) (1 children)

telling me that you actually really believe it would mean you have basically no grasp on reality. You can't tell the difference between your imagination and what's real, allegedly.

I could very well be wrong about you, but I was led there by the evidence of your comments. Don't want to be thought of as a shill, then don't act like one.

[Responses to links]

It is like this is your first time learning about journalism and PR.

Eh. I don't usually involve myself with threads like this, so I am indeed much less experienced arguing them and finding good sources. It's certainly not my job. Anyway, this was in response to you saying that the Palestinians 'generally' disregard Biden/Harris, I think that is still questionable. And even if the majority do, way over half the US is failing to vote for their own interests (because non-voting counts) so that unfortunately would not be too surprising.

Ahahahahahaha

Nice comeback.

Hard to say.

Then by definition I am not a shill.

You think my inability to know what you Really believe (as opposed to what you write) makes you not a shill? Sorry, I'm not able to follow that logic.

I work against the genocide and have for over a year, doing organizing work. Folks like yourself have been excysing and normalizing genocide because your team is doing it.

My team is not great on this count, but the other team (and yes there are only two this election) is so much worse that's it's not even funny.

Trying to convince people to not vote for the only candidate that has a very slight chance of not supporting Israel as much really bothers me. It's not ideal, but there is no better example I've seen of the perfect being the enemy of the good.

Begone, liar for genocide.

Same.

[–] TheOubliette@lemmy.ml 4 points 4 weeks ago

I could very well be wrong about you, but I was led there by the evidence of your comments. Don't want to thought of as shill, then don't act like one.

Faced with a contradiction, did you decide to address it? Nah, just repeat yourself, that will work.

I hope that you someday have the courage of your convictions.

Eh. I don't usually involve myself with threads like this, so I am indeed much less experienced arguing them and finding good sources. It's certainly not my job.

Right you posted some bullshit and clearly did zero media criticism. Is this your way of acknowledging what I criticized? Do you see my point in my responses? What do you think about articles that just provide you a few quotes without rhyme or reason (except that supports a narrative implicitly), and then tell you the narrative to support? Do you think party-associated NGOs are representative of the people?

I helped turn out more Palestinians to act action from weeks ago than there are people on that last list.

Anyway, this was in response to you saying that the Palestinians 'generally' disregard Biden/Harris

The term I used was reject. They are very aware of the Biden-Harris regimes genocide of their people. They do not disregard the murderers of their families.

I think that is still questionable.

You obviously have zero familia with this topic. We both know you hastily Googled your three links. I wonder if you even read them. Instead of making guesses and believing them and then fighting poplee to defend, why don'tyou get involved with some local anti-genoxide groups? Or at least just be honest. Remember, you actually started this topic by saying most support Harris, which was clearly pulled out of your ass.

And even if the majority do, way over half the US is failing to vote for their own interests (because non-voting counts) so that unfortunately would not be too surprising.

The most defining aspect of US voters is that they routinely vote against their own interests. They are awash in a sea of propaganda and PR and false consciousness that scapegoats immigrants for problems created by CEOs and the economic system.

Nice comeback.

You can't ask me to take what you said seriously.

You think my inability to know what you Really believe (as opposed to what you write) makes you not a shill? Sorry, I'm not able to follow that logic.

I think you don't know what a shill is. Look it up. It is not "someone that advocates for something". It is a person that pretends to believe or push something they don't so that they can push something else.

I am obviously sharing my opinions and honestly advocating consistently for my position. Comoare this to your evasiveness and doubling down in things you made up on the spot.

My team is not great on this count, but the other team (and yes there are only two this election) is so much worse that's it's not even funny.

There is no worse than genocide. And your team has been excellent at excusing and normalizing it, such as what you are doing right now in your attempt to attack me for rejecting your genocide. If Trump were in office I would probably see you in the street. Because Biden is in office, you are here defending it.

Trying to convince people to not vote for the only candidate that has a very slight chance of not supporting Israel as much really bothers me.

Yeah duh that is why you are lying about me. You have been scratched by the prospect that someone would doubt your lesser-evil-for-genocide position that has given you license to support these monsters and harass those who don't.

Your lesser evil logic is self-defeating and irrational. Given that you have spent so little time critically evaluating it, I expect you to adopt an anti-genocide stance until you are politically literate just like you would if your family was facing these crimes.

Never again means never again for anyone. It is happening now. Are you going to fight it or support it?

It's not ideal, but there is no better example I've seen of the perfect being the enemy of the good.

Genocide is not good. Do I need to explain this to you?

Same

I don't lie. "I'm rubber you're glue" doesn't work when only one of us is acting like this.

[–] Count042@lemmy.ml 5 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

It's literally the worst crime in the world.

Davidgro out here trying to minimize the literal worst crime in the world for political reasons.

[–] davidgro@lemmy.world -1 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

I agree. Genocide is the worst crime in the world.

Which is why I voted for Kamala Harris, to help keep Donald Trump from winning.

Do you disagree with my choice? If so, how would you vote in the US presidential election of 2024 to minimize the genocide in Gaza?

[–] Count042@lemmy.ml 4 points 4 weeks ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago) (1 children)

Genocide is currently happening with the full support and speed of the US government.

Without resorting to platitudes, or general statements, what specific actions do you think Biden is taking to limit things?

Without resorting to platitudes, or general statements, what specific actions do you think Trump will take that will worsen the already existing systemic rape, torture, and murder of the Palestinian people?

There is no harm minimization for genocide.

People that believe there is have forgotten all historical lessons.

Please read this Nazi Era poem and consider its meaning:

First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—
     Because I was not a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—
     Because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
     Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Those who make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. The absurdity here is believing someone willing to commit genocide against others will protect whatever out group you want to protect that you believe (probably accurately) Trump will go after.

The battle against fascism has already been lost. There is no reform possible from within to fix it.

[–] davidgro@lemmy.world 0 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

So all hope is lost and we should just give up and let the full direct fascist win. Got it.

[–] Sodium_nitride@lemmygrad.ml 1 points 3 weeks ago

Real late reply, but Kamala is a direct fascist.

[–] coolusername@lemmy.ml 6 points 4 weeks ago

takes no effort with modern technology