this post was submitted on 09 Jan 2025
670 points (93.1% liked)

196

16730 readers
1890 users here now

Be sure to follow the rule before you head out.

Rule: You must post before you leave.

^other^ ^rules^

founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
 
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] dandelion@lemmy.blahaj.zone 3 points 1 day ago (2 children)
[–] ricecake@sh.itjust.works 18 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Results: Evidence that there is a biologic basis for gender identity primarily involves (1) data on gender identity in patients with disorders of sex development (DSDs, also known as differences of sex development) along with (2) neuroanatomical differences associated with gender identity.

Conclusions: Although the mechanisms remain to be determined, there is strong support in the literature for a biologic basis of gender identity.

That's not saying what you seem to be implying, and it's not contrary to what people mean when they say gender is a social construct.
Saying gender expression is not only performance is not really related to gender being a social construct.

What we define the genders to be is what is a social construct. The masculine gender encompasses a wide array of behaviours and expressions, as does the feminine. The behaviours and attitudes we assign to each gender is what's socially constructed. People tend to have a gender identity that matches their biological sex, and through acculturation we teach them the behaviors associated with each gender in our culture. Some people later realize that they're most comfortable conforming to a different gender than what matches their sex.

[–] dandelion@lemmy.blahaj.zone 6 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I agree with you that the "gender is a social construct" is ultimately an ontological claim, about what gender is. When I hear "gender is just a social construct", especially from an anthropologist, I am entirely expecting a social constructionist account of gender, that's what they are communicating - what gender is.

Clearly there are social elements to gender, like the color we associate with a gender, which has changed over time and is arbitrary. There is nothing intrinsic about gender-color associations, no reason "blue" means "boy" and "pink" means "girl".

Regarding gender expression not only being performance: some people use Butler's performative theory of gender as a social constructionist account of gender. It's not really a coincidence in my mind that Butler shares some intellectual roots with the psychoanalytical sexologists who popularized social constructionist views in the 1960s, so while I'm sure you could parse several social constructionist accounts I don't think it's unfair to lump them together as a broad camp. The Julia Serano article I linked even does this:

Look, I know that many contemporary queer folks and feminists embrace mantras like "all gender is performance," "all gender is drag," and "gender is just a construct." They seem empowered by the way these sayings give the impression that gender is merely a fiction. A facade. A figment of our imaginations.

Notice how she lumps together views like "all gender is performance" and "gender is just a construct". I think this article is a relevant response to "gender is a social construct".

And yes, it depends somewhat on what people actually mean when they say "gender is a social construct", but I generally take them to mean that they believe in a social constructionist account of gender, i.e. that gender is entirely arbitrary, the result of how we are raised, and the result of socialization. If you are raised a boy, you are a boy because of how you were raised.

The idea that gender identity is biological, which is what that Safer meta-analysis concludes, contradicts the social constructionist account because it claims that a person's gender is intrinsic to them in some way, for example you can't just take a boy and raise them as a girl without problems (as the case of David Reimer illustrates, when the sexologist, John Money, who believed gender was just a construct and tested that theory by trying to have a boy raised as a girl).

[–] ricecake@sh.itjust.works 2 points 23 hours ago

You're putting far too much thought into what other people mean by the phrase, particularly in the context of a joke.
Most people are not referring to several different anthropological, sociological, and feminist theories/philosophies.

When you disagree with "gender is a social construct" in a casual setting, intentionally or not, you're conveying the statement "gender is innately tied to biological sex, there are precisely two, and trans people are invalid".

It's better to take the phrase as meaning "having a vagina doesn't mean you're a hot pink wearing pretty princess, nor does a penis imply you aren't. Gender is more complicated than a binary, and we're better off raising children as little people who tell us who they are than spending too much time being concerned that they only play with plastic figurines compatible with their genitals and playacting the right chores".

It's a joke about tricking people into attending an event usually focused on baby genitals, and then instead giving them cake that isn't coded to the babies genitals with a lecture about how they don't tell you as much about who this little person will be as people think.

[–] fracture@beehaw.org 2 points 1 day ago (2 children)

these are some pretty deep viewpoints to condense into one sentence and just drop links to, can you clarify to what degree you believe gender is biological, and how that extends to transgender / nonbinary people?

[–] dandelion@lemmy.blahaj.zone 6 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

Gender seems to have psychological, social, and biological components. Julia Serano covers this territory fairly well in Whipping Girl, esp. chapter 6 "Intrinsic Inclinations":

... [T]he fact that gender expression is so highly regulated in our society has led many to argue that femininity and masculinity are merely social constructs (i.e., they do not occur naturally, but rather are inventions or artifacts of human culture). According to this social constructionist model, boys are socialized to become masculine and girls feminine; we learn to produce these gender expressions via a combination of positive and negative reinforcement, and through imitation, practice, and performance. Social constructionists point to the fact that the words “femininity” and “masculinity” do not merely describe human behavior, but represent ideals that all people are encouraged to meet. To demonstrate this, they focus much of their attention on socially influenced manifestations of gender expression (often called gender roles), which include feminine and masculine differences in speech patterns and word choice, mannerisms, roles in relationships, styles of dress, aesthetic preferences, interests, occupations, and so on. Social constructionists also argue that the fact that these gender roles can vary over time, and from culture to culture, is indicative of their constructed nature.

On the other side of this debate are gender essentialists, who believe that those born male are simply preprogrammed to act masculine, and those born female are preprogrammed to act feminine. Evidence to support their case includes the predominance of femininity in women and masculinity in men, in our culture and other cultures; the fact that girls tend to behave in a girlish manner and boys in a boyish manner from a very early age; that even in prehistoric humans, women and men seemed to perform different sets of tasks; and that species other than humans also show signs of gender dimorphic behavior. Among gender essentialists, it’s generally assumed that genetic (and subsequent anatomical and hormonal) differences between females and males are the ultimate source for these behavioral differences. Despite their insistence, such direct links between specific genes and specific gendered behaviors in humans continue to remain elusive.

As someone who both is a geneticist and has experienced firsthand the very different ways in which women and men are treated and valued in our society, I believe that both social constructionists and gender essentialists are wrong (or at least they are both only partially right). The fatal flaw of the gender essentialist argument is the obvious fact that not all men are masculine and not all women are feminine. There are exceptional gender expressions: There are masculine women, feminine men, and people of both sexes who express combinations of femininity and masculinity. People who have exceptional gender expressions (like those with exceptional subconscious sexes and sexual orientations) exist in virtually all cultures and throughout history, which suggests that they represent a natural phenomenon. Gender essentialists often try to dismiss such exceptions as anomalies, the result of biological errors or developmental defects. However, exceptional gender expressions, subconscious sexes, and sexual orientations all occur at frequencies that are several orders of magnitude higher than one would expect if they represented genetic “mistakes.”2 Further, the fact that we actively encourage boys to be masculine, and ostracize and ridicule them if they act feminine (and vice versa for girls), strongly suggests that were it not for socialization, there would be even more exceptional gender expression than there is now.

Unfortunately, a strict social constructionist model does not easily account for exceptional gender expression either. Many girls who are masculine and boys who are feminine show signs of such behavior at a very early age (often before such children have been fully socialized with regard to gender norms), and generally continue to express such behavior into adulthood (despite the extreme amount of societal pressure that we place on individuals to reproduce gender expression appropriate for their assigned sex). This strongly suggests that certain expressions of femininity and masculinity represent deep, subconscious inclinations in a manner similar to those of sexual orientation and subconscious sex. (I use the word “inclination” here as a catchall phrase to describe any persistent desire, affinity, or urge that predisposes us toward particular gender and sexual expressions and experiences.) While I believe that such inclinations are likely to be hardwired into our brains (as they exist on a subconscious level and often remain constant throughout our lives), I hesitate to define them as purely biological phenomena, as social factors clearly play a strong role in how each individual interprets these inclinations. In fact, in most cases it is impossible to distinguish our inclinations from our socialization, since they both typically point us in the same direction. Generally, we only ever notice our inclinations when they are exceptional—when they deviate from both biological and social norms.

Further evidence that gender inclinations represent naturally occurring phenomena can be found in other species. If one looks across a wide spectrum of mammals and birds (whose gender and sexual expressions are presumably not shaped by social constructs to the extent that ours are), one generally finds certain behaviors and affinities that seem to predominate in one sex, but which also occur at lower but substantial frequencies in the other sex as well.3 Thus, any model that attempts to explain human gender expression, sexual orientation, and subconscious sex must take into account the fact that both typical and exceptional forms of these inclinations occur naturally (i.e., without social influence) to varying degrees.

In order to reconcile this issue, I would like to put forward what I call an intrinsic inclination model to explain human gender and sexual variation. Here are the basic tenets of this model:

  1. Subconscious sex, gender expression, and sexual orientation represent separate gender inclinations that are determined largely independently of one another. (This model does not preclude the possibility that these three inclinations may themselves be composed of multiple, separable inclinations, or that additional gender inclinations may exist as well.)
  2. These gender inclinations are, to some extent, intrinsic to our persons, as they occur on a deep, subconscious level and generally remain intact despite social influences and conscious attempts by individuals to purge, repress, or ignore them.
  3. Because no single genetic, anatomical, hormonal, environmental, or psychological factor has ever been found to directly cause any of these gender inclinations, we can assume that they are quantitative traits (i.e., multiple factors determine them through complex interactions). As a result, rather than producing discrete classes (such as feminine and masculine; attraction to women or men), each inclination shows a continuous range of possible outcomes.
  4. Each of these inclinations roughly correlates with physical sex, resulting in a bimodal distribution pattern (i.e., two overlapping bell curves) similar to that seen for other gender differences, such as height.4 While it may be true that, on average, men are taller than women, such a statement becomes virtually meaningless when one examines individual people, as any given woman may be taller than any given man. Most people have heights that are relatively close to the average, but others fall in outlying areas of the range (for instance, some women are 6 feet 2 inches and some men are 5 feet 4 inches). Similarly, while women on average are more feminine than men, some women are more masculine than certain men, and some men more feminine than certain women. Because these inclinations appear to have multiple inputs and show a continuous range of outcomes, it is incorrect to assume that those with exceptional sexual orientations, subconscious sexes, or gender expressions represent developmental, biological, or environmental “errors”; rather, they are naturally occurring examples of human variation.

In terms of what you have asked me, I believe gender identity is biological in the sense that your subconscious sex (as Julia Serano would call it) is not something you can choose or that can be altered by social influence. I believe this to be grounded empirically, in the fact that conversion therapy does not successfully treat gender dysphoria while transitioning does. The conservative medical establishment would not back transitioning otherwise, if conversion therapy worked, our cis-normative society would absolutely endorse it as the main treatment for gender dysphoria. There is of course additional evidence in the MRI scans and the autopsies of trans brains which found trans women had structures in the brain like cis women, the brain-sex mosaic that was discovered and so on.

What this means for trans and non-binary folks is that our experiences are not the result of social contagion, delusions, or imagination, but instead a result of natural variation and our biology, even if the way that implicit gender identity manifests in our personal and social lives is clearly shaped by cultural influences.

It also means that conversion therapy, as established empirically, cannot be effective because it cannot change subconscious sex or the causes of gender dysphoria.

[–] fracture@beehaw.org 4 points 23 hours ago

yeah okay, thank you. i think "gender identity has at least some grounding in biology" and "genderqueer identities are generally normal varieties of humans to see, speaking from a scientific viewpoint" are much more agreeable points, and i appreciate the literature that you've provided in their support

fwiw, i'm not sure i'm convinced this is 100% solid science, but i don't think that's really the salient point, either

i don't know exactly how near and dear to your heart "my gender identity stems from an innate, biological place" is - or even "some people's identities stem from an innate, biological place" - but, i think you may find better traction stating that directly, along side an "saying that gender is a social construct feels invalidating to my / some people's experience of their gender identity (and, if you want, here are some sources about that as well)"; if i'm understanding the point you're trying to make correctly

i would also include that i do not believe that invalidating your/others' experiences as sort of innately biologically transgender people is the intention of those that say gender is a social construct. while it is not really something i, as an individual, believe (so i may not be able to do their argument justice), i believe it comes from a fundamentally good place of believing all of us would be better off with less gendered constructs enforced upon us by society. it's not really about invalidating anyone's experience of their gender, or even saying that their gender (/gender constructs) shouldn't be or aren't important; just that, generally, assuming things about people because of their gender tends to do more harm than good. like yeah (using my own gender transition as an example), presenting as a man and getting gendered correctly is great, but those years before where people treated me like a girl because they thought i was one (and frankly, i did too) would probably have sucked less if society didn't make those assumptions

but, to be clear, i think it's absolutely valid to feel like saying gender is a social construct is invalidating. i just don't think that's the intention

if your point was something else, if you just wanted to provide education or something, i apologize for misunderstanding. opening a post with "gender identity is biological" is just uhh, quite a strong statement to open a comment with (especially with the deeply emotional excerpt that accompanied it), so i assumed it was something you felt strongly about. but, you know, internet, tone, etc etc etc

[–] RandomVideos@programming.dev 5 points 1 day ago (3 children)

If gender is just a social contruct, why do trans people want to change their gender?

[–] daniskarma@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 points 22 hours ago

Why wouldn't they? if being withing a specific social construct makes you uncomfortable best thing to do is to change the social construct.

[–] fracture@beehaw.org 5 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

i'm not really here representing a viewpoint other than "if someone wants to identify in a way that makes them happy, they should be allowed to, regardless of the basis they claim for it"

i specifically asked in this case because, especially nonbinary people, but also gnc trans people are sometimes invalidated because of the biological argument, so i wanted clarity on the commenter's position. of course, i don't know everything, and consider my experience to be fairly gender normative for a trans person, so i'm open to learning something new, as well

[–] dandelion@lemmy.blahaj.zone 3 points 1 day ago

A common anti-trans response would be: if gender is a social construct, then perhaps people are influenced by social media into becoming trans. This is the debunked notion of "social contagion", it assumes gender identity is subject to social influence.