this post was submitted on 11 Apr 2025
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Violence is almost always the solution. Civilization is an effort to find a better solution. But people who reject the systems we've built up seem to forget why we built then.
Civilisation is about pooling resources to make a consistent supply of beer and food. It makes no clear preference between violence and peace. Crops are easier to grow during peace, while war affords more land to grow crops. So the optimum strategy for a civilisation is to alternate between periods of peace and war.
Yeah, to uphold the status quo of the few owning everything and controlling everyone
That's not why we built them. They got hijacked for that, and they need fixing.
They were built so we had an alternative to killing each other over disputes.
Isn't it though? The police were created to hunting down escaped slaves. The government was set up to keep the wealthy land owners in charge (only they could vote afterall). Schools were created to meet the needs of growing industry.
I'm struggling to find anything that was built specifically for the people and not the rich.
The USA didn't invent the concept of police or government.
The first police were appointed to investigate and punish minor crimes commited agains civilians.
Maybe. I'm pretty sure the context is US capitalist society though.
The government gives the working class a way to have their grievances heard and addressed in a way other than starting a rebellion.
Yes, it serves to keep the powerful in power, but that's irrelevant to my point. It also serves to make sure the little people get taken care of well enough that we don't kill the ones in power.
For a more specific example, see unions. The alternative to unions is plant managers getting killed.
I think you just made my point. The rich designed a system where they trade complacency for the illusion of control. And they didn't have to give up any meaningful amount of power.
And you are missing mine.
So help me see it?
I agree with you that the systems we have built keep the powerful in power. That's what they get out of the deal.
But the point of civilization has less to do with them, and more to do with interactions between regular people. If I have a dispute with you, for example, over some property, we can call on lawyers, police, regulatory bodies and similar to help us settle our dispute. We maybe don't like the resolution, but, by and large, we accept it.
Without those systems, I could just beat you up, and take the property for myself. You're only real option would be to kill me, and take it back.
Similar, we can do things like vote out our leaders, or move to other places. We have options besides burning down the castle, or setting up a guillotine.
Civilization is about giving us that alternative.
Pretty sure feudalism got started because the raiders noticed that if they didn't steal and burn everything and mostly prevented others from doing that, then they could extract more from the peasants in the long run. Nothing got hijacked, "civilization" structured around the threat of violence was exploitative from the start.
It's not a threat of violence, it's a preferable alternative to violence, for both sides. Revolts aren't great for those in power, but they are catastrophic for a significant number of those not in power.
Then why are most “uncivilized” societies have more egalitarian and non-violent than “civilized” ones?
And why has every civilization since the dawn of them been about using violence to uphold the status quo?
The institutions aren’t broken. They’re working as designed.
Uncivilized societies engage in violence much more frequently than civilized societies.
That's the case for individual/personal violence, and also for institutional/mass violence.
Civilized societies are better than uncivilized society in anything they do collectively, be it science, production, or murder.
Since civilized societies are so much better at murdering, the few cases where mass murder does happen are much more significant.
However, such cases remain an exception, as opposed to what is the case for uncivilized societies.
Uncivilized societies may be harmless, but they are certainly not peaceful.
Civilized societies are more powerful, but they yield their power much more carefully.
I’ve done a bit of googling and the evidence I’m seeing doesn’t agree with you on several points.
For example, a war in NZ between Māori tribes killed roughly 10% of the population, while the US civil war only killed 0.5%
And this report from UNESCO agrees with my assertion that organized violence appeared not long after agriculture as a way to reinforce the status quo.
Did you forget your stance was that less complex social structures were supposedly more peaceful? You cited the Maori tribes killing 20x more of their own than one of the largest wars in North America.
Organized violence between groups has been observed in fossil records, such as discussed in THIS PAPER, and it has also been observed in warring tribes of Chimpanzees fighting for territory. The foremost theory about the extinction of the Neanderthals is that Homo Sapiens appeared and wiped them out.
WARNING: GRAPHIC IMAGERY OF WILDLIFE
Gombe Chimpanzee War
You claimed that modern humans are more successful at killing. Which is true from a sheer numbers perspective. But when two tribes of 50 people lose 10 people total that's a lot more per capita than the numbers we kill now.
As for the organized violence observed in fossil records, YouTube actually recommended me a video not long after you posted this comment about just that. Turns out it happened after the Neolithic Agricultural revolution, just like the link I posted from UNESCO said. Apparently about 95% of males were killed in a short period of time throughout Africa, Europe, and Asia once they transitioned to sedentary, agricultural lifestyles. Prior to that there was no real violence in the fossil record.
Which also reinforces my position that less organized, less 'advanced' societies aren't as violent.
As for the chimps, they're starting a war with gorillas now, and scientists think it's over competition for previously abundant resources. Both species are confined to small parks, and they're competing for food, and now things are getting tense.
So the conclusion we can gather is that when there are concentrated or restricted resources, apes will become violent. But prior to the invention of agriculture, humans lived in a world of abundance and were less violent. And as we consumed more resources, the other ape species started fighting each other. And since we don't see mass graves of neanderthals I highly doubt we killed them all.
Also, we are more closely related to bonobos so chimpanzee behavior, especially that of chimpanzees who are forced into small areas due to human encroachment, doesn't seem a good point of reference.
(Sorry I didn't reply earlier, I was on mobile and Voyager's interface is terrible for long replies. I really wish they'd re-work their link formatting.)
(Also based on the language of your responses you're not going to ever agree with me so I'm not going to bother reading your reply, and I'm just replying for anyone else who reads it so they have a full picture.)