this post was submitted on 20 Aug 2023
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Under the policies of the greater evil, billions will die due to climate change because corporate profits are more important than human lives to them. Under the policies of the lesser evil, billions will die due to climate change because corporate profits are more important than human lives to them.
It makes no difference, both parties should be opposed and true change can only come through revolution and the abolition of the capitalist class.
Under the policies of the lesser evil, billions will die as you say.
Under the policies and rhetoric of the greater evil, a woman just got brutally murdered in California for the crime of hanging a fucking flag outside her shop.
My point, as I have been trying in vain to make this whole time (but apparently don't have the writing ability to convey) is that if you're fucked no matter what you do, then do the thing that hurts your friends less.
If you have some other course of action that can lead to actual change, then tell me. If you have some other course of action that will help my trans friends today, then tell me. Because billions dying over the next century doesn't mean much to people who get shot, stabbed, or beaten to death today.
I want to believe there's a better way, though, so explain it to me.
The action that leads to security and a better life for yourself and those around you is to organize your community along whatever lines are possible. Unionize with your coworkers, form a tenant's union with your neighbors, physically get out in the street and provide security for LGBT+ events and spaces. Build up parallel structures so that when the government fails, you and those you care about will still have access to food and water, a place to live, and security. Join a political organization that's active and actually does things in your area (one of the communist parties, DSA, or even just Food not Bombs) and do all you can to prepare for a revolution that might never come.
I'll close this by saying that I've been harsh on voting and the electoral system in general during this conversation, and probably too hostile in tone towards you. I apologize for that, because it's sometimes hard to tell when someone is actually acting in good faith, this being the internet and all. Voting isn't something I think is particularly useful, but if you vote for the democrats because they're less openly fascistic, that's up to you. The key is to not let your political activity start and end at voting, because direct action in the real world is by far the best way to achieve positive change. I wish you and yours the best in surviving the collapsing fascist hellhole we find ourselves in.
spoilered giant emoji
I agree with everything but the "it makes no difference" part. Thinking it makes no difference is a privilege a whole shit ton of people can't afford.
They're both horrible. Capitalism sucks. But to say there's no difference? That's just delusional. You're missing the trees for the forest.
Until that "true change" you're talking about happens, I'm not willing to sit by and let women, immigrants, minorities, and LGBTQIA+ people get fucked over even worse than I am. And fuck you if you are.
Roe V Wade was repealed under Biden. The concentration camps at the border are still open. In response to the mass murder of black people by cops, Biden gave more money to the cops. The extermination of trans people is continuing apace at the state level and the dems are doing nothing to stop it. This is all to say nothing about foreign policy, where the US is still complicit with killing thousands if not millions since 2020 through sanctions and facilitating genocide in Yemen. Or lifting all COVID restrictions despite the massive danger still posed.
There is a rhetorical difference between the two parties, but there isn't much evidence of a material difference.
Okay.
What word did I say that made you think I'm happy with the Democrats? That I actually support them rather than hate them just marginally less than the fascists in the other party?
It's all fucked. And the Supreme Court was stacked by the last administration, so you're arguing against yourself buddy.
I never said you were. I was addressing the claim that they're a lesser evil, which I'm not convinced by.
Agreed!
Largely irrelevant. Biden could stack the court, or just tell them to fuck off since they have no real power, or codified Roe into law when the dems controlled congress. There are excuses for why they couldn't do any of those things, sure (not least of which that Biden opposes abortion rights himself because he's a fucking monster). But all of them show that they're fundamentally unserious in fighting back against the fascists. I'm not going to vote for von Hindenburg 2.
lol which is why voting isn't going to save your ass.
Did you vote for Biden? So you voted and still got roe v wade overturned. You voted and Biden has continued the staggering majority of Trump's inhumane border policies. You voted, and we're one well-timed court case away from the SC overturning gay marriage. Congratulations, the better guy won and all the same shit happened.
Roe v Wade got overturned by a Supreme Court that was stacked by the Republicans during the previous administration you absolute waste. You're literally arguing against your own point.
And again: what fucking part of any fucking word I've typed makes you think I'm happy with the Biden administration.
Oh, wait! You're not actually reading anything I'm saying! You're just shifting goalposts and regurgitating talking points! Holy fuck, it's like talking to a communist version of my mother.
Don't talk to me unless you actually know something. Take your useless idealism elsewhere.
And what is your vote doing to stop that? Anything at all?
I'm reading what you're saying, it's just so dumb and trite it might as well be embroidered on a tea cozy
The fact that I feel the same way about you probably indicates that this is a pointless waste of time on all sides.
In the Biden election? Nothing. Roe was done for as soon as Trump won. It was on life support, but people refusing to vote for the lesser of two evils pulled the plug.
I'm tired dude. I'm just so fucking tired.
Do what you want. You're not gonna accomplish any more than I am so I'm not sure why I cared enough to get worked up. We're all fucked no matter what. Do your little protest vote or whatever the fuck. I'm sure it's gonna do so fucking much.
Why did Trump win? Did it have anything to do with the Clinton campaign choosing a pied pipe strategy where they boosted everything Trump did in the primary and ignored all the less fascist candidates? Do you suppose that continuing to use that tactic is good? The Democrats continue to use their donations to amplify the furthest right candidates in races, and they do not have anywhere near a 100% success rate in defeating those fascists they intentionally amplify. To make the point, money given to the DNC is, in some small proportion, money given to the RNC because the DNC would prefer to amplify worst case scenarios to improve their chances instead of offering GOOD CANDIDATES to entice voters. Supporting that is supporting the rightward slide of everything.
That's one way to see it - the same way the DNC paid pundits and managers see it, since it validates them. Another way to see it is, the Democrats steadfastly refuse to offer a better alternative.
You know that voting for Biden resulted in a worse world, and here you are sneering at anyone who thinks that was a waste.
edit: let's address Obama, too - he had a fucking SC appointment, and instead of doing anything serious to seat a good candidate, he fucking punted on the assumption - the incredibly stupid assumption - that Clinton would win. Obama is why Roe is gone. So your vote for Obama was also a vote for letting Republicans pick a SC candidate. Can't you connect the dots? It doesn't matter how hard you vote for Democrats. They will always let the Republicans win, because they're both paid by the same masters.
one more edit: the distinction is you keep repeating shit everybody knows, whereas I (and other leftists) are trying to explain you to a new concept. It's clear you're not listening, but I'll keep trying until you give up.
I keep repeating shit because you keep not hearing me. You still think I'm trying to defend the Democratic party. You still think I find the Biden administration defendable. If you understand "lesser of two evils" so well, why do you think I'm trying to defend a party I keep calling evil?
So I'll tell you what, I'll deal with the "new concept" part of what you said when you explain that to me. Once I understand why you think I'm defending a position that I haven't once defended, I might be able to move on.
You, a smart guy: you should vote for Biden because lesser evil
Me, a complete idiot: no, you should not
You, a very smart guy: NUH UH I NEVER SAID YOU SHOULD, I DON'T HAVE TO DEFEND THE PERSON I SAID YOU SHOULD VOTE FOR
I didn't say Biden. I never said Biden. I never brought up his name. I at no point defended the actions of his administration or his party.
All I said is that the other guy is worse, which means you vote to try to have it not be the worse one. That's explicitly not a defense of any party. It's an attack on them both. I'd repeat my initial phrase, but apparently even though everyone seems to think it means I'm defending someone, trying to drive it home has gotten me labeled a congenital idiot.
And you've been misrepresenting me and jumping up and down on me ever since.
And nobody has presented me with a better option. They just keep calling me names, saying I'm repeating myself, and saying "they're all the same" and "Biden bad!"
So please, for the next election, give me an action I can take that has some sort or hope of getting us all out of this collective shit show.
This is at best, an outright lie. You want people to vote for the "lesser evil", that is an endorsement of Biden and any other Democrat.
No, this is also a lie. You are a liar.
The better option is organize, instead of voting for the party you endorse but curiously refuse to defend. * or challenge
Organize, outside of the party that apparently you refuse to defend but think we should all vote for and get snotty and sneer about being questioned.
It's very eye opening that "lesser evil" proponents are so cagey about the candidates they're explicitly telling us to vote for. Genuinely curious what irrational mental space you're in that you think you can browbeat people to vote for democrats but allow yourself to get offended when people say democrats suck ass and shouldn't be voted for. Pick a side, you fucking weenie.
I want to be very clear: I used to be a reliable blue voter, for maybe fifteen years. That is behind me. Voting for shitbags who will never care about the poorest people in America is wasted effort, I will not bother myself to drive fifteen minutes to the rural voting station to endorse assholes whose only responsibility is to their big money capitalist donors.
Have you seen Sophie's Choice? If not, this won't make much sense, but When Sophie chose Eva over Jan, was she endorsing Jan's death?
Because I don't think she was, but by the reasoning you're using on me here, you would have to think Sophie endorsed Jan's murder. As far as I can follow your logic, Sophie was not only in favor of Jan's death, she supported it fully, and could find no fault in it.
We were going to have Trump or we were going to have Biden. No third choice I made - or anyone else at the time made - could do anything to change that. So, even though I didn't like the creepy, handsy, corporatist faux-progressive ancient douche, and didn't care all that much for his former boss, or his party, I chose him. Because the other guy had shown himself to be worse. All the same bullshit, plus rabble-rousing hate speech, direct attacks on my LGBTQIA friends, and more. He was empirically worse.
If you can, somehow, read that as an endorsement, then I'm relatively certain we're not speaking the same language, and this has all been a huge waste of our time.
And fuck off with calling me a liar. I haven't. If my language skills have failed me, and I haven't managed to get my meaning across, fine. If I'm wrong, fine. But I didn't set out to deceive anyone, nor have I intentionally or knowingly made a false statement.
Edit: grammar
Sophies choice is a binary. Voting isn't. You have to make a case for the vote you want people to make. This is extremely simple shit.
Also, you are a liar.
Sorry. In what way have I knowingly told a falsehood? I'm lost, because I may be kind of an idiot, but I was present for this whole conversation, and I'm pretty sure I at no point tried to deceive you or anyone else.
Seriously? I already directly addressed this in a reply to you.
You are trying to play a game where you admonish people to vote for Biden but get to dodge the argument about whether he's worth voting for. You endorse Biden but will not tackle his inadequacies because they're inconvenient, so you act snide about it instead of addressing them. This is lying, but it's understandable - his actions and the actions he has failed to follow through on are indefensible.
Anyway, I'm 40 and have voted most of my life until recently. I didn't vote in the 2020 election and I won't be voting in any other elections because I'm done voting for Democrats pretending to give a shit about anyone other than themselves.
It isn't an endorsement. How is calling something "evil" an endorsement? If I said "I hate beer cheese and pimento cheese, but if I have to eat one, I'll take beer cheese" an endorsement of beer cheese? As far as I can see, I just said I hated them both.
No, I'm not, and the fact that you think I am completely baffles me. All I said was *the other guy is worse." That's the position I took. That does not require providing evidence of Biden's virtues, because that position has nothing to do with his virtues.
How am I explaining this wrong? How am I fucking up my point this badly? Am I writing in English?
Again, no. Calling someone slightly less horrible than former president Cheeto isn't an endorsement in the same way coming out of a movie theater and saying "well, at least it wasn't Bloodfeast 2" isn't a positive review.
Because my statement has nothing whatsoever to do with his inadequacies. I'm not being snide, I'm just fucking confused as to why you think I like the guy.
Rattle off all the shit you want about how horrible he his. I DO NOT CARE. HE'S NOT AS BAD AS THE OTHER GUY.
That's not me being snide or sarcastic. That's me shouting the same fucking thing I've been saying for days now. I'm not endorsing him, I'm anti-endorsing Trump. I didn't vote for Biden, I voted against Trump.
Congrats. I've shifted from "confused and exasperated" to "fucking pissed off." If that was your goal this whole time, well trolled.
It is not. It is, at worst, being disingenuous. I'm not splitting hairs here. Lying is making false statements with the intent to deceive. Even if I was avoiding your question instead of trying my goddamndest to answer it, it would still not be lying.
Fuck, it wouldn't even be dishonest, just shitty rhetorical practice and an asshole move.
Jesus fucking Christ fine! If that's what your conscience demands, then fucking do that! Just get off my dick, and learn what the words "liar" and "endorse" mean.
Fuck's sake.
Because you don't have to choose either. I'm not reading further, you're just too silly and this is too fucking simple to let some chud drag me into it. You're wrong, sucks, go vote for the lesser fascist and imagine you're fighting the power or whatever. Buh byeeee
Okay. Don't read any further. Go ahead and walk away. It's not like you were paying attention to anything I said anyway.
You're wrong. I'm not lying. I'm not even being disingenuous. But, hey, fuck you decided I was, and u guess that's fucking it.
Jesus. No matter what side of the argument, it's assholes like you ruining the world for the rest of us. Have a nice life.
Eta: sorry, I meant to say have a nice life, you fucking coward.
Lmao I can't wait until you and your comrades try to start the revolution, shit is going to be hilarious π€£
Also why tf does everyone on hexbear put their pronouns in their username on a site that emphasizes anonymous interactions. No one cares about what you like to be called.
Mask off, transphobe