No Stupid Questions
No such thing. Ask away!
!nostupidquestions is a community dedicated to being helpful and answering each others' questions on various topics.
The rules for posting and commenting, besides the rules defined here for lemmy.world, are as follows:
Rules (interactive)
Rule 1- All posts must be legitimate questions. All post titles must include a question.
All posts must be legitimate questions, and all post titles must include a question. Questions that are joke or trolling questions, memes, song lyrics as title, etc. are not allowed here. See Rule 6 for all exceptions.
Rule 2- Your question subject cannot be illegal or NSFW material.
Your question subject cannot be illegal or NSFW material. You will be warned first, banned second.
Rule 3- Do not seek mental, medical and professional help here.
Do not seek mental, medical and professional help here. Breaking this rule will not get you or your post removed, but it will put you at risk, and possibly in danger.
Rule 4- No self promotion or upvote-farming of any kind.
That's it.
Rule 5- No baiting or sealioning or promoting an agenda.
Questions which, instead of being of an innocuous nature, are specifically intended (based on reports and in the opinion of our crack moderation team) to bait users into ideological wars on charged political topics will be removed and the authors warned - or banned - depending on severity.
Rule 6- Regarding META posts and joke questions.
Provided it is about the community itself, you may post non-question posts using the [META] tag on your post title.
On fridays, you are allowed to post meme and troll questions, on the condition that it's in text format only, and conforms with our other rules. These posts MUST include the [NSQ Friday] tag in their title.
If you post a serious question on friday and are looking only for legitimate answers, then please include the [Serious] tag on your post. Irrelevant replies will then be removed by moderators.
Rule 7- You can't intentionally annoy, mock, or harass other members.
If you intentionally annoy, mock, harass, or discriminate against any individual member, you will be removed.
Likewise, if you are a member, sympathiser or a resemblant of a movement that is known to largely hate, mock, discriminate against, and/or want to take lives of a group of people, and you were provably vocal about your hate, then you will be banned on sight.
Rule 8- All comments should try to stay relevant to their parent content.
Rule 9- Reposts from other platforms are not allowed.
Let everyone have their own content.
Rule 10- Majority of bots aren't allowed to participate here. This includes using AI responses and summaries.
Credits
Our breathtaking icon was bestowed upon us by @Cevilia!
The greatest banner of all time: by @TheOneWithTheHair!
view the rest of the comments
Look at what men are missing and how the right is selling it to them.
Men aren't doing so hot right now, emotionally and mentally. They feel like they are not manly, and criticized for trying to be manly or liking manly things. There's a lack of transitions into manhood, and the bar that is seen as a successful man with a good career is pretty much impossible.
If you have a poor paying job, you're not manly. If you have a well paying job but it's blue collar you're not manly because you're a dumb working stiff. If you have a white collar job you're not manly because you're not doing anything tough with your body. Maybe if you're a CEO who owns the company but also does rock climbing and bear fighting are you seen as manly enough, maybe.
Then you have these guys, your Andrew Tates and so on, who act very manly and tell you it's ok to be a man and then spout off some of the most toxic, asinine shit saying that's how you be a man. And young guys fall for it because they aren't shown any alternative.
Then on the left you have people who speak ill of men as a whole, and manliness as a whole. Sometimes the criticisms are correct, but a lot of times it's presented as men overall. If you try to say that it's not every man out there who's a monster, you get blasted with criticism for saying "not all men". They also don't provide anything positive or solutions for feeling manly, with the best they can be offered is to be more like women.
So young men, especially young cishet men, are actively pushed away from leftist spaces, leaving them feeling demonized by those spaces, and actively pandered to by the right which are offering mind poison dressed up as solutions.
So what do we do? There's a few things to fix.
leftist media has to stop demonizing men and start demonizing actions. Instead of saying "men are rapists" start saying "rapists are bad". When people start to say things like "cis people are shit" other people need to call them out of it, because if you're supposed to be the side that accepts people's gender identity, it should be for all gender identities. It can feel cathartic to rail against the majority demographic, especially when people of that demographic have hurt you, but if you feel that it's unfair to rail against a group because of the actions of a few members of it, that should apply to all groups. Things like "what's wrong with the straights" doesn't help build bonds with allies, and it turns young men away from leftist spaces.
there needs to be validation and recognition from the left for problems men have, like suicide, workplace death and heavier prison sentencing. The left needs to show that they are trying to fix these problems, too, instead of telling young men to suck it up and be a man about it because they are the oppressor demographic.
there needs to be people who counter toxic masculinity, not with telling men to be more like women, but with positive masculinity. If a man is having emotional or mental problems, toxic masculinity says to push that down. Femininity says it's ok to be soft and vulnerable. Positive masculinity would say that a real man is true to himself and his feelings and expresses then freely, even if others might ridicule him for it. There's a subtle difference, and the end result of femininity's and positive masculinity's tactic might be the same, i.e. the man expresses those feelings, but the way that they get there is very different. The former makes the man feel less validated in his identity, while the latter uplifts it. The memes where they say stuff like "I always tell my homies I love them before they go to bed" actually work.
leftist influencers need to make fighting for the rights of minorities seem manly. Badass. Like a hero. Worthy of praise and celebration.
while they won't get the financial and political backing that the toxic male influencers get, there needs to be positive male influencers who talk about masculinity in a positive way, while promoting the ideas above. There needs to be an alternative, who acts manly but in the fun, positive way, that validates young men's feelings of inadequacy, frustration, and isolation, while promoting an egalitarian perspective.
there needs to be a cultural shift in what makes a man. A shift away from dying in battle or becoming a tycoon, and a resurgence of the working class hero. Mass media itself needs to change and promote positive male figures. It can work and be popular, like in Avatar the Last Airbender. We need to show men that they are still men, and still worthy of love, respect and adoration, even if they aren't a super soldier or a wealthy elite. A lot of this is counter to capitalistic goals, so it may have to be subversive, but eventually it needs to be made the norm.
other men need to continue to step up and speak out about injustice towards minorities and against toxic masculinity behaviors in the day to day, and start decrying those behaviors as unmanly. People need to call Andrew Tate and the like unmanly.
ideally, the men's rights movement should be absorbed by the left and the toxic incels kicked out. It should be done in the name of gender equality. Fixing only woman's problems won't solve the patriarchy (which could be changed to a different term so everyone feels like it's less of an us vs them) and feminists should try to help solve men's problems directly rather than indirectly. Young men would see feminism as more appealing if feminists actually focused on men's problems as well, rather than ignoring or worse, demonizing them. Feminism could be rebranded as an egalitarian movement for all sexes and genders, maybe get a name change. If the patriarchy affects everyone, then the focus should be on everyone. Maybe it would have to be a whole new movement entirely.
So it's a larger problem than just getting more leftist male influencers, and some of those problems are systematic. Some can get worked on today. Talking about masculinity in a positive way, promotive equity, stop both their side and your side from bigotry, and, probably the thing that would get young men on board the most:
Actually trying to solve the problems young men are going through.
I get that this is upvoted a lot due to being constructive but it also reflects a lot of Republican media tropes about the left that aren't really true - and that's why trying to "fix" these things won't work - because it misses the real problem.
Examples: No significant figure on the left is saying "men are rapists", or telling men to be more like women, etc. Reducing suicide, safer workplaces, and reducing excessive prison sentences are all priorities for the left and not for the right.
I think the real problem is quite simple: Republicans have invested heavily in portraying themselves as the "masculine party", and in driving the narratives I've mentioned. And because Republican leaders like the Murdochs and Elon tend to be men, they're best at driving those narratives.
Which goes to the real underlying problem with the left as a whole - no ability to drive or counter a media narrative. The right has Fox news and Elon's control over Twitter, which they can and do regularly use to create whatever narrative they want. Notice how for example they just made white south African farmer killings a topic all of a sudden. The left has a bunch of corporate media whose top priority is selling truck ads. Sure, maybe the reporters themselves are left leaning, but they have no top down guidance as to what narratives to build.
And until the left creates some sort of media capability to create and control narratives, the right will always have a leg up. And because of that, none of the well intentioned ideas here will actually work. If the left tries to appeal to men, the right will decide how those appeals will be interpreted.
I agree with you for the most part, but there is a thread you missed.
While there might not be a significant leftist media personality which says misandrist things, there are a lot of smaller people who do. There's an air of "men are not welcome here, specifically cishet men" in lefty spaces. And people who try to speak out against it tend to be ousted. (Case study Erin Pizzey) There wouldn't be a demand for "male tears" mugs out there if there wasn't a demand for them.
Whether you think this behavior is acceptable or not, it doesn't make the left seem appealing to young men, especially because it's not called out by people.
But yeah, the top down media? A huge machine that's a problem. The left will have a hard time replicating it, especially because when you live in hyper capitalism, it's not really in the benefit of capitalists to try to fix it.
You hit the nail on the head AND provided clear action items. Excellent post.
I do think that it would be difficult to rebrand "feminism" and "patriarchy" because the terms are inherently gendered and are sometimes still being used for gendered purposes. We should definitely find new terms and be more accurate about the egalitarian movement being a new movement, or a rebrand of the more general parts of feminism, rather than trying to reuse the old movement's terms when it doesn't make sense.
W-Wait, what is this? A well-thought out, constructive, sympathetic comment? Here? I don't believe it!
Real talk, though: This is an incredibly solid post and I really appreciate you taking the time to actually write all of these points out. It's rare (or, subjectively, it feels rare) to see an admission that a major shift in how this topic is approached is needed, and I feel just a bit more hopeful seeing someone else put in the time to go this deep on it.
I would only make two add-on comments to your points:
With regard to point #6, I agree with the concept - but we have to be careful of how we phrase this. Unless it comes with a major effort to utterly restructure our economy in such a way that either a man's value is no longer measured in his ability to be successful in a paid position, and/or we restructure our economy to make success more viable, I fear that efforts to support "working class heros" are doomed to become awkward failures as automation continues to steamroll the viability of those positions.
One point I don't see brought up here, though it is touched at in (1) and (8), is that we've got to modulate how we discuss so-called "toxic" behavior. When so many seemingly minor behaviors are met with the same levels of disdain, villainization, and even punishment as things like actual sexual assault, it ends up feeling deeply isolating, undermines the point that is trying to be made, and pushes men towards the worst actors.
For #6, I don't think we necessarily have to move away from the idea that being a man means being a provider and a protector. At least to me those are some of the core tenants of being a man.
The person above you mentioned the men in Avatar the last Airbender. But I also want to add in the men in LOTR, Gomez Adams, Ted Lasso, Kratos in the newer god of war games, and Steve Rodgers.
These are men who are caring, loving, emotional and they are (mostly) able to show those emotions, capable of growth, and able to admit when they are wrong. But they are still men. Men who struggle with anger, men go to war and protect their families, men who are incredibly strong in the face of struggle, men who sometimes make "inappropriate" (to the left) jokes, and men who strive for nothing else but bettering the lives of those in their care.
I sometimes hate that what counts as "positive masculinity" is really just feminity but dressed up in a blue bow. Men are not women and telling them that they can't be super competitive, can't be angry, and can't fail is just setting them up to fall into toxic masculinity. This might just be me talking about the culture I was raised in but those things aren't necessarily a bad thing, and erasing what a "man" has been for generations isn't going to win you any extra fans.
Sorry, I think maybe my point was misunderstood. Trust me, I'm in full agreement with you: Like the comment I was responding to was saying, trying to simply frame "positive" masculinity in terms of feminine traits doesn't seem like a good idea. There needs to be a positive reference for actually masculine role models and ideals.
Like, literally everything you said is something I totally agree with.
My concern is that, specifically, initiatives which idealize working-class providers and fail to recognize the way automation and computerization have significantly flattened the jobs market (especially well-paying, working-class jobs), are intrinsically doomed because we don't have an economy which widely supports men acting as supporters for a family. If we idealize a working provider but simultaneously leave things in a state where a man can't provide for his family, what I fear we're actually left with is swaths of men feeling unfulfilled and angry at those in charge for bringing them to this point.
Thanks, I'm glad you liked it!
I kinda agree on your points. I feel that working class heros could make a comeback if done well, though.
Hell ideally I'd like to see more historical stuff based on labor history, Blair Mountain was crazy and could totally be an action movie.
brb gotta tell my son I love him
Thank you for taking the time to write that. That was very well thought out and I really can’t see much or anything to quibble about.
I am a gay man raised in a conservative culture and I really know quite a lot of men in their 30s and 40s who are straight and accepting of me, but still deeply deeply troubled and confused about what it means to be a man. They struggle to identify and articulate their emotions quite a lot.
The fact that those in same-sex relationships have to invent their own ways of dividing the work in a partnership without reference to pre-defined gender roles makes their insight incredibly useful to the world at large. A lot of the struggles that men experience are due to rigid gender roles that do not allow for healthy expression.
I get a little bit angry because it’s like we were expected to accept that provisional approval from the Supreme Court, which as we all know is a very fragile victory.
Why? Because frankly, I think gay men and lesbians have a lot to teach about relationships just by existing visibly. Transgender people do too, but they do not yet enjoy the patchy and tentative acceptance that same sex relationships between cis people have achieved in the large parts of the USA. Their struggle is very intense right now and the LGBQs can help by getting loud again.
Why did we give up on the fight so early? The struggle for existence is not quite as dire for gay and lesbian people as it used to be, but it is still quite a struggle as nothing is assured. But it is not just for our benefit that we must be visible. Frankly, our experience gives us a great deal of wisdom and insight that our society, and men especially, desperately need.
l feel that the acceptance of LGBT people has actually had a beneficial effect on cishet men in ways most people aren't aware of.
Dating is a good example. Traditionally the guy asks the girl out and pays for everything. This system sucks. It means men feel desperate and have to prove their worth (financial and otherwise) feeling lonely and worthless and women are stuck with the constant stream of guys trying to hit on them, dealing with harassment and worse.
But with more acceptance of homosexual relationships, that traditional method of dating doesn't apply. The old "but who's the guy" confusion goes away, and people as a whole realize that it's stupid. If you see a post about a woman insisting a guy pays for everything or a guy insisting on ordering for his date they seem old fashioned and weirdly demanding. Most people wouldn't bat an eye about a girl asking a guy out on a date now, and I'll bet there's some old newspaper headlines about some lady doing that in the past.
By your nature you're helping to break down these dysfunctional systems and it's actually helping people, so thanks a lot for that!
This is a great solution but it has two big problems that make it functionally impossible.
Depends on what part of the left you're talking about, but yeah, these are things which have to change in order for it to work well.
All these things already exist and maybe just need more exposure.
Most things already exist. What we need is for this to become the dominant understanding/goals of the left.
You can't help men and hang on to feminism. Feminism is inherently anti-male.
I don't think that's inherently true for all feminism, though there's definitely been some bad actors. Actresses.
Wrong. Feminism is anti-patriarchy, for everyone. Educate yourself, read a little.
Feminism started as a way to fight for the rights of women. That's not anti-male, but it's also not "for everyone".
Of course the focus is on women and generally LGBTQ+ people, as they are oppressed groups.
In its wider sense though, especially with the focus on intersectionality, it is for a fairer and juster world for everyone as the systems of oppression affect us all in various capacities.
I don't know if I would categorize that as feminism though. Egalitarianism maybe? "Social justice" in the non-derogatory sense?
Feminism is just a collective name for various ideologies with the aim of social justice for all genders/sexes. Within you will find many different movements with various qualities. In general, it's about creating societal/governmental systems that afford the same quality of life and opportunities for everyone, regardless of gender, race or sexuality.
You could see it as a subcategory of egalitarianism, which in general has the goal of social justice.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism
In the end, of course not every movement is perfect, people are fallible after all. But that doesn't only concern feminists even if they are one of the main targets of the manufactured right-wing culture war. And furthermore, some people going too far/not being nuanced enough/not going far enough is not a reason to disregard the movement and its wider aims in a fight for a better world for all.
Being anti-patriarchy is an inherently anti-male stance. A feminist walks up to a man and says "We're trying to erode your influence on society, isn't that great?" Yeah, and what the natives need is Christianity.
They'll try to lie and market "The Patriarchy" as whatever they think they can get away with at the moment with the audience they've cornered, pretend like defeating "The Patriarchy" should be the goal of whoever they're talking to as well. It shouldn't.
Feminism started out as things like the suffragettes, wanting the right to vote in elections. Fair enough. "We want to be equal to men!" Uh huh...so here in 2025 what right or privilege do I enjoy under the law that a woman doesn't?
I will also assert this: No feminist will be caught dead genuinely helping a man. A feminist is more likely to burn down a men's shelter than build one.
Citation needed
God damn, what a load of incel bullshit you're spewing. You're exactly the problem and the reason why women would rather spend time with a bear than another self-absorbed manlet.
Patriarchy affects everyone badly, not just women. But I won't be wasting time, you can learn about everything if you just put in a little effort. You seem to be choosing egoistical ignorance.
see?
Right, spewing bullshit and then framing resistance as confirmation of your ficticious points - classic playbook. Go and touch grass for once ;)
I want "manly-ness" to go extinct. Honestly I bet mods might delete my comment. But I feel the issue is we as a species are figuring out (slowly) that we all need to go extinct. Human brain architecture is fatally flawed. Greed and selfish notions, always striving for power, and the destruction of basically all other life in this planet, tells me we all need to simply accept that we are empherial, transient and temporary.
Nothing is sacred, there is no gods or meaning. Ultimate Nihilism essentially. MISANTHROPIC ANTI-NATALISM. But also negative-utilarianism, which states that those who choose to stay living need to focus on reducing other people's suffering. Honestly, it's almost fascist itself, my beliefs. Here's one: those who cause other people suffering should be executed! No tolerance for intolerance..
Start by burning all the churches down. Outlaw religion, the mind sickness. Only allow what can be proven scientifically. But yeah, basically we need to genocide the genociders.. no forgiveness. Cull the conservatives. No more nations or governments. No patriotism or nationalism or exclusive cultures.. above all though, we humans are garbage and we have poisoned the entire planet. We must go extinct. Never get off this planet! Kill any who try to leave, gotta contain the cancer!
EDIT: to answer the question of what could we do to win over more young men? Tell them and everyone else this, "we are going to Eat the Rich, and fucking slaughter Nazis!"
That's some eco-fascism-adjacent thinking, at best. You're using your negative opinion of humanity to justify mass murder.
I mean, if you really were the ultimate nihilist, you wouldn't have a problem with manliness because it wouldn't matter anyway.
doomer to the nth degree.
i hope you get better <3